Evan Q: 01:18
All right. Welcome, Heather." We w- welcome Heather. Yeah. All right. Well, welcome to episode today. Uh, we're gonna introduce you to Heather, of the, clinicians in our office. Welcome, Heather.

Heather & Melissa: 01:25
Thank you. It's

Evan Q: 01:26
It's good to

Heather & Melissa: 01:27
you- this this is her first

Melissa: 01:27
time.

Evan Q: 01:28
Good to have you here. Yep, your first time on the, on the show. Uh, no pressure.

Heather & Melissa: 01:33
Yeah.

Melissa: 01:33
none. Okay.

Evan Q: 01:35
So we're gonna talk a little bit today about the myth of the child.

Heather & Melissa: 01:39
Mm.

Evan Q: 01:40
how families work together through this not just you know, individual children.. So start this with a premise, and I'll let you guys kind riff off of this. This is gonna be a mostly you episode. Um, so I call in, a parent calls in, says, "My nine-year-old is a problem, can you fix him for what's actually going on in that family about 80%

Heather & Melissa: 02:04
of the time?

Evan Q: 02:04
of the time?

Heather & Melissa: 02:06
So

Melissa: 02:07
your background,

Heather & Melissa: 02:09
I think, is important for us to at least share. Do you wanna share a little bit about kind of what you've done over the years and what even allows you to be able to speak on

Heather & Melissa: 02:20
 this topic? Sure.

Melissa: 02:20
topic? Sure. With any intelligibility.

Heather & Melissa: 02:24
Mm-hmm. Um, so

Heather: 02:26
my background

Heather & Melissa: 02:27
pretty much includes family therapy. From the time I entered the field, my first job was in family-based therapy. Um, and I did family-based therapy, which is going into people's homes where their kids are exhibiting behaviors that would be considered unsafe and are- at risk Mm ...of being taken out of the house due to the level of the behavior. Um, yeah, pretty severe mental health, we would say. Mm-hmm. And inpatient stays, all of those kind of things. Um, and then I had left that and gone to school-based. Why

Melissa: 02:59
did you leave?

Heather & Melissa: 03:02
Oh, that's a heavy question. I feel like I-

Heather: 03:04
I- I, uh,

Heather & Melissa: 03:07
think I left that- field, I guess I'll say, for a little bit because I think the,

Heather: 03:14
at the time

Heather & Melissa: 03:16
so new as a therapist- Mm I think I really came into that pressure of,

Heather: 03:23
oh, I'm actually

Heather & Melissa: 03:24
to fix this." Like,

Heather: 03:25
that phone call of like, This is my nine-year-old child. Come in and fix

Heather & Melissa: 03:29
I thought doing the work was actually trying to fix the child for them for a period of time,

Heather: 03:33
and that's not

Heather & Melissa: 03:35
No. Um, so

Heather: 03:36
I left

Heather & Melissa: 03:37
Mm. Went into school-based, and I quickly realized working so individual with kiddos in school-based, like there's a lot of pros to that program. Um, but the main con that I found was the lack of parent involvement. Mm. And I felt like I was handing kids coping skills to deal with maybe some of their parents' behaviors. Right. Which led me right back to family-based. With no reinforcement then in the home- Yes

Melissa: 04:01
on the behaviors.

Heather: 04:02
Yes.

Heather & Melissa: 04:03
Right.

Melissa: 04:04
So that led you back to family base.

Heather & Melissa: 04:05
Mm-hmm. I went back to where I came from- Okay because I found the value in that then, and

Heather: 04:11
I felt like

Heather & Melissa: 04:12
helped kind of Right shift the lens of more so teaching skill- Mm-hmm than fixing the kid. Yes. And I felt like I could be more effective going around a second time- Mm-hmm ...seeing that. Were you? I would believe

Heather: 04:26
so. I, the,

Heather & Melissa: 04:28
Yeah.

Heather: 04:29
Well- Families might

Heather & Melissa: 04:30
with you on that one,

Heather: 04:31
but.

Melissa: 04:32
Well, what's the other piece of this, right? Because we know as we can't fix

Heather & Melissa: 04:36
Sure.

Melissa: 04:38
And so did you find of

Heather & Melissa: 04:42
that wanted the

Melissa: 04:43
the help, that wanted

Heather & Melissa: 04:44
make the changes, that wanted to take accountability for their part in it? really kind of

Melissa: 04:51
too far gone at that point.

Heather & Melissa: 04:52
Yeah, I think it was a split. I think there was a lot of families that felt desperate and wanted the help, but didn't understand what the help was. Mm-hmm. And so I think when you started to actually engage with what help meant, that's when the lights would show up. Change. Yeah. Changing. And change from

Heather: 05:09
them.

Melissa: 05:09
Right.

Heather: 05:09
Not

Heather & Melissa: 05:10
change from their child. Right. Um, so I do believe that parents really wanted things to change and be better. I don't think parents anticipate that it starts with them and not their kid. Right. So h-

Melissa: 05:22
h- we

Heather & Melissa: 05:23
things pretty differently

Melissa: 05:24
here.

Heather & Melissa: 05:25
Um,

Melissa: 05:26
in a lot of ways,

Heather & Melissa: 05:27
And I I remember when you first

Melissa: 05:29
started with you took on a

Heather & Melissa: 05:32
of kids. Mm-hmm. And we would have a lot of conversations about, like, how do we combat that home environment. We can't just change the kid. Mm-hmm. And you

Melissa: 05:45
know my

Heather & Melissa: 05:45
on this, is we can't just change a kid. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 05:48
we can't fix

Heather & Melissa: 05:49
kids. Mm-hmm. We have to start change from the top down,

Melissa: 05:53
and one of the took on this revamping our child

Heather & Melissa: 05:58
Mm-hmm. yes. yes.

Melissa: 05:59
Do you remember what we put in there?

Heather & Melissa: 06:01
Uh- Yeah, I the only thing I feel like I remember is outlining that the parents were gonna have to be- Yes involved, and that they had to consent that they knew that if they were getting their kid involved with us- Uh-huh that they were also going to be involved. Absolutely. And then what happened to our child referrals? They kinda went

Heather: 06:19
down.

Melissa: 06:19
They went down.

Evan Q: 06:20
It's, it's a group participation mechanism. Yeah. It is. Everybody's a part of this.

Melissa: 06:24
Uh-huh,

Heather & Melissa: 06:24
And i- it

Melissa: 06:25
seemed that not all the parents really wanted part of that process.

Heather & Melissa: 06:33
They, they really do

Melissa: 06:34
seem to view

Heather & Melissa: 06:35
as a fix my kid model. Mm-hmm. Um, so

Melissa: 06:39
that kind of

Heather & Melissa: 06:40
us to

Melissa: 06:42
the new model that we're launching.

Heather & Melissa: 06:45
Mm-hmm. 

Heather & Melissa: 06:45
And

Melissa: 06:46
do you, do you wanna share some about,

Heather & Melissa: 06:49
just a little bit about that,

Melissa: 06:50
and what would happen when that parent calls in and says, "Fix my nine-year-old?"

Heather: 06:55
Yeah,

Heather & Melissa: 06:55
the new model that we're looking at involves more of a systemic family- Mm-hmm approach. So when the parent calls in and says, "Fix my kid," where

Heather: 07:05
we're gonna

Heather & Melissa: 07:05
is with them. Mm-hmm. And kinda going through an assessment, seeing what's going on, and breaking it down from there. So okay, this is clearly... if the kid's having an issue, it's pretty much

Heather: 07:16
Most likely and

Heather & Melissa: 07:18
into the parenting side of things too. If the kid's gonna be in therapy, Yep the parent is also going to be in therapy But from there, we'll also kind of assess do they need couples counseling for mom, dad, whoever, right, that's in a relationship in the house. Mm-hmm. Um, do we need individual therapy to work through traumas or- Mm-hmm yeah, other issues? Do we need family, like are we ready to be in a room together- Mm-hmm and working through things in that way? Yeah. Kinda just breaking it down from there in a more just, I picture it very collaborative, not only among family members, but among- Mm-hmm us here. As clinicians. As clinicians. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 07:54
Yeah, because

Heather & Melissa: 07:55
can't possibly take on

Melissa: 07:56
doing all of

Heather & Melissa: 07:57
services. Nor would you want to. No. So

Evan Q: 08:00
So we've talked a little bit about your into, you know, the business and into family therapy and ultimately how you cycled back to it. Um, and Melissa, I know you've been doing this for, you know, a long time as well. What percentage of the kids would you say that you've treated, um, over the years that you would say are the actual the problem versus like the loudest

Heather & Melissa: 08:24
symptom of it all? Oh.

Heather: 08:26
gee.

Heather & Melissa: 08:27
I'd say a pretty

Heather: 08:28
low

Heather & Melissa: 08:29
are the actual

Heather: 08:31
source compared to- If you

Evan Q: 08:33
had to put a number on it, what would it be?

Heather: 08:34
Oof.

Heather & Melissa: 08:36
Maybe 15 to 20%. Way to put Baby in the corner. I

Heather: 08:42
know. I was gonna say, I, I mean. Baby in the...

Evan Q: 08:45
Well, you know, numbers make

Heather & Melissa: 08:48
So,

Heather: 08:48
Well. Even if they're not factual.

Evan Q: 08:50
No, they better be close to factual, otherwise what are we saying it for? But-

Heather: 08:54
In my experience, however.

Evan Q: 08:55
So le- less than, less than a quarter of the people are coming to you and saying, "My kid's the, the problem," and they're just maybe a symptom that, of a larger

Melissa: 09:05
a kid's reaction to the systemic to- the family dynamic.

Heather & Melissa: 09:12
Yeah. And looking at how every child responds differently to some of those things. You know, you have some

Melissa: 09:18
kids that

Heather & Melissa: 09:19
some kids that externalize. Some kids decide they're cats. Mm. Other kids- you

Melissa: 09:24
know, sink into their model student know, take on that role of being the golden child.

Heather & Melissa: 09:32
They excel in sports.

Melissa: 09:34
So I think we tend to end up with those

Heather & Melissa: 09:37
children, with those class clown

Melissa: 09:39
children,

Heather & Melissa: 09:40
with those kids that are struggling with the anger. Mm-hmm. Or they pick up a vape?

Melissa: 09:45
Or they pick up a vape, yeah. Absolutely.

Evan Q: 09:50
S- so-

Heather & Melissa: 09:51
Lying, stealing

Evan Q: 09:53
Heather, you did in-home and school-based, um, work before coming a, you know, uh, an outpatient clinician role. What did you see in the living rooms that you would never see

Heather & Melissa: 10:04
in an office? Mm.

Heather: 10:08
Yeah, uh

Heather & Melissa: 10:11
things even

Heather: 10:11
as

Heather & Melissa: 10:12
simple as where people sit, how they align themselves in a room. Mm-hmm. Well, that's dad's chair, or that's mom's spot. And where does the kid tend to navigate- and

Heather: 10:24
go?

Heather & Melissa: 10:25
Mm-hmm. Um, even looking for when things are

Heather: 10:28
going well.

Heather & Melissa: 10:28
Like, where do we go when things are going good? Yeah. Um, also, yeah,

Heather: 10:34
just

Heather & Melissa: 10:34
the dynamics of, uh, Mm-hmm ...co-regulating.

Heather: 10:38
Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause in my office

Heather & Melissa: 10:39
when, especially when I'm just seeing a kid individually on their own, the dysregulation's pretty low. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. A lot of the kids

Heather: 10:45
really liked coming to therapy. I'm- That's right not triggering them all

Heather & Melissa: 10:49
much at times- Sure right? Um- Sure and I, then the parents, even if the parents are there, right, still pretty low dysregulation, cause they're in front. They're

Heather: 10:57
not in

Heather & Melissa: 10:57
safe, comfort

Heather: 10:58
space. I go

Heather & Melissa: 11:00
somebody else's home, the system's gonna play itself out. Mm-hmm.

Heather: 11:04
Um,

Heather & Melissa: 11:04
so you see the... In

Heather: 11:07
family-based, they use

Heather & Melissa: 11:08
called the negative interaction cycle. So we plot that pretty quickly when we go into people's homes- Mm-hmm ...And we watch how, it starts with how

Heather: 11:16
the kid reacts or

Heather & Melissa: 11:17
and then how the parent reacts and responds, and then how does the kid- up the ante from there? Yeah. And how does the parent up the ante from there, and where does this go? Right. Um, watching that play

Heather: 11:25
out

Heather & Melissa: 11:26
is a lot harder in a therapy room than it is in somebody's living room.

Melissa: 11:30
So we've talked a

Heather & Melissa: 11:32
bit about PCIT. Mm-hmm. parent-child interaction therapy,

Melissa: 11:36
and that model has this Mm-hmm where, they virtually and observe communicate

Heather & Melissa: 11:46
with the parent system during that or are just observing and kinda taking in that whole family environment. We've

Melissa: 11:53
talked about

Heather & Melissa: 11:54
using that as a

Melissa: 11:54
component- Mm-hmm of this model-

Heather & Melissa: 11:58
Mm-hmm ...where we

Melissa: 11:59
do get to

Heather & Melissa: 12:00
because you, what you see,

Melissa: 12:03
especially

Heather & Melissa: 12:04
when kids don't know somebody's watching.

Heather: 12:07
Mm-hmm

Heather & Melissa: 12:08
Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and kids tend to get to a point, too, where they don't care to hide it anymore. Mm-hmm. But sometimes that takes the parents longer to get to. And I think when you're in their home- Yeah you watch them hit the point of desperation- Mm-hmm that you don't always see. Yeah. And how do we

Heather: 12:28
respond

Heather & Melissa: 12:28
we're desperate? Right. And how does that connect to what we're seeing from the kid when the kid is desperate?

Melissa: 12:34
Would you see that in a

Heather & Melissa: 12:36
session? Would you see the parent get to that point of desperation? Yes. right in front of you? Yes. Okay.

Melissa: 12:42
Even- Okay.

Heather: 12:43
Yes.

Melissa: 12:43
I've never done family-based.

Heather & Melissa: 12:45
Yeah. Like

Evan Q: 12:46
the model so I have a, a couple of thoughts as well that came to me while we were talking and, and you mentioned this, and I know, Melissa, early in your career, um, you weren't, you didn't go right into outpatient work. I don't think anybody that's, that's new in work goes right into outpatient work. And it, it, if I could summarize my perspective, it feels to me like the first place they put social workers straight out of the hardest to be. They put them with, or you typically find your home with an agency, a government agency-

Melissa: 13:21
Trial by fire fire

Evan Q: 13:22
or family-based environment. Yeah. felt to me when were talking, Heather, and you can correct me on this or add to it, to like your go-around were like, "I don't even that I know." what I think I know." and, And, and, and, uh, you know, you came back to it after a transition period- Mm-hmm to, to the school-based, and you came back to with a different, maybe a more experienced set of eyes- Mm and you saw things differently. Would you agree? Yeah. Well,

Heather: 13:47
the confidence

Heather & Melissa: 13:48
low. Mm-hmm.

Heather: 13:48
And it wasn't not

Heather & Melissa: 13:50
was it because I was new, but then you also have to remember, at that time, going into it, I'm 24 years old. Wow. And I have no kids at that point in time. Right. I'm not married. Mm-hmm. So again, when you watch people get to a point of desperation- Mm nine times out of 10- Mm they're looking for somebody to blame. So when I'm there- Yeah "You're making our family worse." Right.

Heather: 14:14
This wasn't

Heather & Melissa: 14:15
until you came

Heather: 14:16
in You

Heather & Melissa: 14:18
even fix it." "You're...

Heather: 14:20
That's why you're here.

Heather & Melissa: 14:21
Make it better." And you know, you really take that in when you're not- Yeah confident, competent.

Melissa: 14:27
Right.

Heather: 14:28
And again,

Heather & Melissa: 14:28
trial by fire. Right. And you say, "Okay, maybe these people have a point," right? "I don't

Heather: 14:33
know what I'm

Heather & Melissa: 14:34
about. Let me

Heather: 14:35
step away."

Heather & Melissa: 14:36
Um, and I think it just took a little bit

Heather: 14:38
bit of time to come

Heather & Melissa: 14:38
back to that confidence of, "No, this

Heather: 14:41
is just hard for everybody," right? "We

Heather & Melissa: 14:43
don't know what we're doing. Right. Um, and I can bring a different perspective. It's not my job to fix it. Yeah. It's my job to sit in the mud with you and figure out what we can do different.

Melissa: 14:52
And you can't fix things for to try

Heather & Melissa: 14:58
and implement things- Mm-hmm to fix it themselves. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we can offer all these suggestions to families and sit in the muck with them,

Melissa: 15:08
and yet

Heather & Melissa: 15:09
if they don't do it when we're not there, or you know, they try

Melissa: 15:15
it when you

Heather & Melissa: 15:16
there, but then i- they're not at a level... And I, I mean, some of this is nervous system functioning. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 15:23
And them, being in

Heather & Melissa: 15:26
or flight- Mm-hmm ...in these situations by themselves,

Melissa: 15:29
and when we go into fight or flight, we're not thinking about the

Heather & Melissa: 15:32
to use. Mm-hmm.

Evan Q: 15:34
Yeah, that's a, that's a fantastic into the next segment of this too, because I wanted to, to start down the question of really what is the hard ask here? what what, what is Heart for Change is now telling parents- your participation is no longer optional. Yes.

Melissa: 15:50
Yes.

Evan Q: 15:50
So say in plain English, like what are you actually asking a parent to do-

Heather: 15:55
Mm-hmm

Evan Q: 15:55
in regards to this? I know you'd strategies that could up, but in a typical scenario, what are you asking a to do?

Heather & Melissa: 16:05
I think the main bottom

Heather: 16:08
line that I feel

Heather & Melissa: 16:09
I'm asking a parent to do is, one, to show up and be willing to reflect, um, and be open to the

Heather: 16:18
idea

Heather & Melissa: 16:19
of, like, accountability in a role, in a relationship- Mm-hmm um, because ultimately, even though it's a parent-child relationship, it's still a relationship you have to take accountability in Mm-hmm. Um, and I think there's a lot of, sometimes that can be a challenging

Heather: 16:34
thing to work through of it's not always

Heather & Melissa: 16:35
just "I'm the parent, and I said so- Mm-hmm and that's just why it is the way it is." Um, yeah, I think just asking parents to be prepared to show up and reflect and try- Mm-hmm something new, um, and be open to trying something new, and being

Heather: 16:51
real about where you're at, honest. I think that's a

Heather & Melissa: 16:56
part of it, too, of don't tell me you're open to trying to do something- Mm-hmm if you're really not open to trying to change it, 'cause then we're gonna- Right beat our head against the wall. Let's find what we are able and willing to handle to change, um, and start from there.

Melissa: 17:12
I think that's

Heather & Melissa: 17:13
because one

Melissa: 17:14
of the things that I've

Heather & Melissa: 17:16
is that, I mean, as humans we have a

Melissa: 17:19
a

Heather & Melissa: 17:20
towards negativity. Mm-hmm. And so we come in as parents with a negative view of what's happening, and

Melissa: 17:27
really, one of the fundamental issues that people come in with is a lack of positive relationship with that partner or child- Mm-hmm or whatever

Heather & Melissa: 17:38
is. And so we can't

Melissa: 17:40
build that- Mm-hmm without creating positivity-

Heather & Melissa: 17:43
positivity. Mm-hmm. Positive interactions. Yeah.

Melissa: 17:46
And so one of the first that I often

Heather & Melissa: 17:50
parents to start with is let's just

Melissa: 17:53
try to have a positive

Heather & Melissa: 17:55
with your ch-" Let's, let's

Melissa: 17:58
just hone in you give them

Heather & Melissa: 18:01
kind of positive feedback? Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 18:03
Hey, I really appreciated you or, "You did a great job with that, and

Heather & Melissa: 18:07
how." Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 18:08
Um, looking at shifting this

Heather & Melissa: 18:12
negativity based relationship- Yeah

Melissa: 18:15
to some kind

Heather & Melissa: 18:17
of positive interaction that exists here. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, that's what I think I liked about Family Based the most was the model was rooted in if the relationship improves, the behaviors will follow.

Melissa: 18:26
Right.

Heather & Melissa: 18:28
Right. So that's kinda the goal is how do we build a relationship. Mm-hmm. Like, there might be times where you wanna come in and talk to me about Johnny- Mm-hmm

Heather: 18:37
slapped Susie

Heather & Melissa: 18:38
X amount

Heather: 18:39
of times, and I don't

Heather & Melissa: 18:40
hear about

Heather: 18:40
that. That's content. Sure.

Heather & Melissa: 18:43
wanna go through the process of

Heather: 18:44
of like-

Melissa: 18:44
Why did he do

Heather: 18:46
did we get here? Yeah.

Heather & Melissa: 18:47
Yeah. I was

Melissa: 18:49
just

Heather & Melissa: 18:50
too about even those higher

Melissa: 18:52
risk vaping, the fighting,

Heather & Melissa: 18:55
the,

Melissa: 18:56
the, lying and deception,

Heather & Melissa: 18:58
right? And I follow Dr. Becky Kennedy. Mm-hmm. She wrote

Melissa: 19:02
Good

Heather & Melissa: 19:03
and circling

Melissa: 19:04
back to that

Heather & Melissa: 19:06
every single behavior has a root cause. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 19:10
and these are good

Heather & Melissa: 19:11
kids that are having a

Melissa: 19:14
hard time and hard moments, parents.

Heather & Melissa: 19:18
we are good parents- Mm-hmm that are having a hard time- Mm-hmm with

Melissa: 19:24
some really hard behaviors, and sometimes regulating

Heather & Melissa: 19:28
Mm-hmm. And expecting a child

Melissa: 19:30
to regulate or fix we can't even

Heather & Melissa: 19:34
it. Mm-hmm. Yep. I mean, you know our philosophy here is I am not sitting up on this

Melissa: 19:39
white cloud of perfection,

Heather & Melissa: 19:42
as a

Melissa: 19:42
human- No as a parent- Yeah in, in

Heather & Melissa: 19:45
way and I'm so honest with people that

Melissa: 19:49
I sometimes lose my shit.

Heather & Melissa: 19:51
It's-

Melissa: 19:51
It,

Evan Q: 19:52
it's interesting- It happens that you, that you mention that, too, 'cause what came to my mind while you were talking about that and the negativity side of things is that you're going to have a number of parents who hear, "Hey, we need you in the room as you are the

Heather & Melissa: 20:05
here." Yep

Evan Q: 20:07
And so- You

Melissa: 20:08
are the solution here.

Evan Q: 20:09
What do you say to that parent?

Melissa: 20:11
You are the solution. Mm-hmm. You are part of the solution. And the reality is, a

Heather & Melissa: 20:17
of the parents you worked with in family-based

Melissa: 20:20
didn't exactly have good modeling on how to be a parent. And we're talking about breaking

Heather & Melissa: 20:27
of cycles. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and and these are also families who typically were used to having people, professionals come in and tell them what to do. Right. And not

Heather: 20:38
give them

Heather & Melissa: 20:39
tools and things- Mm or try to teach them how to do. Mm. So it was never modeled for them to begin with, and then you have professionals saying, "No, don't

Heather: 20:47
do that,

Heather & Melissa: 20:47
do this." Right. Um,

Heather: 20:49
or, "We'll just you,

Heather & Melissa: 20:51
right? And get this

Heather: 20:52
figured out," and-

Heather & Melissa: 20:53
Which isn't helping never having the skill-building. Right. So again, it's a lot of stuff where it's not meant to be a

Heather: 20:57
judgment thing on you're- No doing something wrong. Nope.

Heather & Melissa: 21:00
But we can rewrite this.

Melissa: 21:03
Well, and you even said,

Heather & Melissa: 21:05
is for those situations where things are so bad-

Melissa: 21:09
Mm-hmm and so out of that these people are

Heather & Melissa: 21:13
into your home i- what, a minimum of twice a

Melissa: 21:16
week, right?

Heather & Melissa: 21:16
Yeah. Three times. Yeah.

Melissa: 21:18
And they're on call all

Heather & Melissa: 21:19
the time That's

Melissa: 21:21
not our Mm-hmm. Our program is even a

Heather & Melissa: 21:26
to that

Melissa: 21:27
of, hey, look,

Heather & Melissa: 21:28
as a family, we're struggling with these

Melissa: 21:30
things. We don't feel like we're

Heather & Melissa: 21:32
enough help." Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 21:33
We don't feel like just outpatient is enough, and we're looking at who, a- and we say

Heather & Melissa: 21:40
about our practice as a whole,

Melissa: 21:42
right? Nobody's forced to

Heather & Melissa: 21:43
here in our rooms. Yeah. If you don't wanna be here, don't be here. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah.

Melissa: 21:48
Yeah. Because we got a lot of people that do wanna

Heather & Melissa: 21:50
here. Mm-hmm. So

Melissa: 21:51
if you're a family that recognizes you need more

Heather & Melissa: 21:55
help and support,

Melissa: 21:57
you might need it as a parent. Maybe you're

Heather & Melissa: 22:00
issues co-parenting with your spouse. Mm. Um, because that doesn't

Melissa: 22:03
just

Heather & Melissa: 22:04
in

Melissa: 22:05
divorced families. Yeah.

Heather: 22:06
Yeah.

Melissa: 22:07
Um, maybe parents are on different

Heather & Melissa: 22:09
pages. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 22:10
Maybe one parent has that

Heather & Melissa: 22:12
of trauma- Mm-hmm

Melissa: 22:14
That we can is playing

Heather & Melissa: 22:18
still.

Melissa: 22:19
It's, it's fear-based

Heather & Melissa: 22:21
parenting. Mm-hmm. Or it's

Melissa: 22:22
control-based par- well, control-based

Heather & Melissa: 22:25
is fear-based parenting. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Melissa: 22:28
and these are parents really wanna need the help.

Heather & Melissa: 22:33
I haven't yet gotten the

Melissa: 22:35
help change it, but

Heather & Melissa: 22:37
are you willing to sit in this trench with me?" Mm-hmm. and help m- help me, help

Melissa: 22:43
and guide

Heather & Melissa: 22:44
and our family-" Sure. Yeah ...to a better dynamic?" Absolutely. I mean, I'm even thinking about our own home, right? where we have some siblings that are like oil and- water. Yeah. And we could sit them down

Melissa: 22:55
in a room, and they can hash stuff out,

Heather & Melissa: 22:57
and, and that might even be part of this. Mm-hmm. Is like these two siblings are struggling,

Melissa: 23:02
Or all

Heather & Melissa: 23:03
siblings are struggling with one sibling- Yeah

Melissa: 23:06
who's

Heather & Melissa: 23:07
all the energy and time and

Melissa: 23:08
investment. So you know what? Let's come in as a family and talk

Heather & Melissa: 23:11
about it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Evan Q: 23:15
So something that's come to mind, it- Can this be... Is this a barrier? And I don't mean that regarding whether parents are willing to do, but thinking about a single mom working two jobs-

Melissa: 23:26
Mm-hmm

Evan Q: 23:27
a dad on a second shift, Like, are you s- sort of screening out those, those families who might need you the most? Cause I mean, I feel like those are the families where, you know, parents aren't together- Mm-hmm as often. They're either the night, like you mentioned- um, you know, families are broken separated. Um, you know, they're just not together as much. Talk about how this, d- is it screening those families out, or are you still helping,

Heather & Melissa: 23:57
able to help those families? So I mean, part of what we're bringing in, in new clinicians- Mm-hmm ...is those night owls.

Melissa: 24:06
I mean, we- we're bringing on people, people, two out of three, that really enjoy

Heather & Melissa: 24:15
doing those sessions in the, the late evening hours. Sure. And

Melissa: 24:20
that was something

Heather & Melissa: 24:21
that we specifically looked for, to be able to help out some of those families that can't go pick up their kid from school and get them here. Mm-hmm. They need clinicians that can be here between

Melissa: 24:32
5:00 and

Heather & Melissa: 24:33
8:00 to do some of that work. Yeah.

Evan Q: 24:36
Yeah. And it sounds like some of the strategies that you're planning on using, or m- maybe methodologies is a better word, I don't really know, you guys are the, the clinicians. But when you talk about having, you know, c- I don't wanna say camera access, but that's- I guess that's what it is. Access to see the family interaction at home and in situations might not normally have- Yeah seen them in the office. Those kinds of things should make that a little bit easier, right? Let me get a

Heather & Melissa: 25:05
glimpse into how you are at home. That gives me a framework

Evan Q: 25:08
to base my work off of. While you're trying to put

Melissa: 25:09
kids to bed.

Evan Q: 25:10
Right.

Melissa: 25:10
Mm-hmm. And it's, it uses our HIPAA compliant system, so it's literally a

Heather & Melissa: 25:15
session- Yeah

Melissa: 25:17
that is

Heather & Melissa: 25:18
everything being HIPAA compliant. Mm-hmm. And you're just

Melissa: 25:21
setting up that iPad

Heather & Melissa: 25:23
iPad in the room- Mm-hmm

Melissa: 25:24
so that observe that dynamic during bedtime or during dinner, family dinner- Yeah or homework time. And mean, even

Heather & Melissa: 25:35
family based, you guys aren't always... You're, you're not there for dinner. Yeah.

Heather: 25:40
I mean

Melissa: 25:41
They're working around you. And-

Evan Q: 25:44
It's kind

Heather & Melissa: 25:44
like inviting you over, everybody

Evan Q: 25:45
be on your best behavior. For sure. Companies come to

Melissa: 25:48
that group. You're not there when they're trying- Yeah to

Heather & Melissa: 25:49
to bed. Yeah. I mean,

Heather: 25:51
and it would always

Heather & Melissa: 25:51
depend on the family and- Mm-hmm where we would see the most success is within that, 'cause I, I sure did have some families where I went to their house almost every day around dinner time 'cause dinner time- Wow was the struggle. I mean, that was also a big part Mm-hmm ...of family based was it was-

Melissa: 26:06
Mm-hmm

Heather: 26:06
plenty of my days were

Heather & Melissa: 26:07
8:00 AM to 8:00 PM and- Yeah ...being out in the field that long because that was hard. Some

Heather: 26:13
kids struggle to

Heather & Melissa: 26:13
up and get ready for school. So there would be mornings where I'd have to show up to the house extra early and help the

Heather: 26:18
family work through

Heather & Melissa: 26:18
getting kid up and ready to go to school or- Yeah work through bedtime process. So that is some of those things that is harder in outpatient where... And I think people will really love and appreciate that because I've, even in outpatient, have explained kind of my background and dynamic- Sure to people and they go, "Oh, well, is that something you can still do? Can you come in my home?" "Can you come see?" Virtually

Melissa: 26:38
we can.

Heather: 26:38
Yeah. And, um, at the time I'm like, "No." Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm.

Heather & Melissa: 26:39
the time I'm Like,

Heather: 26:40
not

Heather & Melissa: 26:40
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Not quite there yet, but- Yeah this will be a good medium to that. I think

Heather: 26:46
I

Melissa: 26:46
think it's a good

Heather & Melissa: 26:46
intermediary step here- Yes

Melissa: 26:48
to hopefully prevent escalating

Heather & Melissa: 26:52
that point. Sure. And also prevent the natural abdication that tends to start happening of- Mm.

Heather & Melissa: 27:01
 Can

Melissa: 27:01
you talk about that?

Heather: 27:02
Yeah. So I think that there's

Heather & Melissa: 27:05
huge difference that took

Heather: 27:06
me a while to

Heather & Melissa: 27:08
The main feedback

Heather: 27:09
I always

Heather & Melissa: 27:10
got was, uh, you're doing

Heather: 27:12
a lot of modeling,"

Heather & Melissa: 27:13
right, for the families, which isn't always necessarily

Heather: 27:16
bad. Like,

Heather & Melissa: 27:16
good Mm-hmm ...to model things. Um, but

Heather: 27:18
modeling can

Heather & Melissa: 27:19
turn very quickly into doing it for. Um, so I think sometimes that started to become a dependence a little bit- of- Mm-hmm "Come show me how to do it. Mm-hmm. And

Heather: 27:29
the lack of

Heather & Melissa: 27:31
confidence that that allows the parents to build, because that was something that I started to lean into a lot. I have parents, like, kind of getting upset and in that desperation mode,

Heather: 27:38
the

Heather & Melissa: 27:38
or flight. Mm-hmm. Tell me

Heather: 27:39
what to do.

Heather & Melissa: 27:42
And I got to the point where I'd have to tell them, "I cannot tell you what to do, because if I tell you what to do and it goes

Heather: 27:46
well, you don't

Heather & Melissa: 27:47
to celebrate that win. It's, well, Heather did that." Right. "And if I tell you what to do and it goes wrong,

Heather: 27:52
then you're gonna blame me." It's Heather's fault. Right. So there's no responsibility for worse-

Heather & Melissa: 27:58
If I'm constantly telling you what to do or doing it for you

Melissa: 28:00
So what would that

Heather & Melissa: 28:01
like now- Mm

Melissa: 28:03
in, within this

Heather: 28:05
Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 28:05
How would it

Heather & Melissa: 28:06
look different- Mm-hmm

Melissa: 28:07
with a parent?

Heather: 28:08
Yeah. I more-

Heather & Melissa: 28:11
skill

Heather: 28:12
building-

Heather & Melissa: 28:12
Mm-hmm. And, uh, prompting. So- Prompting of implement-

Melissa: 28:17
implementing. Yeah in that moment-

Heather & Melissa: 28:18
Yeah. Mm-hmm

Melissa: 28:19
what, what is something you might say to that they're going

Heather & Melissa: 28:23
that panic mode, What do I do?" Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Heather: 28:26
Well,

Heather & Melissa: 28:27
usually when we get to that space, the first thing we talk about is regulating emotions. I always use, like,

Heather: 28:32
stop, drop, and roll, right? Yeah. That's

Heather & Melissa: 28:33
not just for being physically on fire.

Heather: 28:35
That's,

Heather & Melissa: 28:35
for- Yeah

Heather: 28:36
Yeah emotional- Mm-hmm being on fire. So regulate

Heather & Melissa: 28:40
your child if you do not regulate

Heather: 28:41
yourself. Mm-hmm. And you can't ask

Heather & Melissa: 28:42
your kid to regulate until you are also willing and able to regulate yourself. Right. So those

Heather: 28:48
first

Heather & Melissa: 28:48
steps will be, okay,

Heather: 28:49
what do you

Heather & Melissa: 28:50
Do we have to bring in, if it is a two-parent home- Mm-hmm tap

Heather: 28:54
in dad, right- Mm-hmm or tap in mom or whatever

Heather & Melissa: 28:57
looks like.

Melissa: 28:57
Sure.

Heather & Melissa: 28:58
And then c- can we

Heather: 29:00
not only

Heather & Melissa: 29:01
for yourself, but for the kid- Right model regulating and coming back in. Mm-hmm. So, 'cause

Heather: 29:05
a lot of times

Heather & Melissa: 29:06
we're finding in families is that they get dysregulated, they have a blow up, and then they

Heather: 29:10
all step away. Mm-hmm. And they don't come back until we are all able

Heather & Melissa: 29:13
pretend like it didn't happen. Mm-hmm. And then this will play out again. So how can we get to the step,

Heather: 29:18
Those would

Heather & Melissa: 29:18
be the things that we'd be

Heather: 29:19
prompting

Heather & Melissa: 29:20
of, okay, let's get you regulated. How do we work through that? What do we need? Okay. How, how do we utilize our

Heather: 29:26
supports? Sure. Where are we at? What does

Heather & Melissa: 29:27
look like for you as mom or dad or parent working through this- Mm-hmm. caregiver? Mm-hmm.

Heather: 29:32
Um, how do

Heather & Melissa: 29:34
repair?

Melissa: 29:36
And you're in

Heather & Melissa: 29:37
for the repair then too. Mm-hmm. Well, it, it's

Melissa: 29:39
funny that you say

Heather & Melissa: 29:40
because

Melissa: 29:41
oftentimes in

Heather & Melissa: 29:42
home,

Melissa: 29:42
everybody's to say,

Heather & Melissa: 29:45
I'm, I'm stepping away." Mm-hmm. And we will reconnect

Melissa: 29:51
then, 10 minutes

Heather & Melissa: 29:52
later. Mm-hmm. But

Melissa: 29:53
we'll

Heather & Melissa: 29:54
reconnect. Mm-hmm. And then restore that relationship. Yeah. Yep. Right. Yes. A lotta times that's the part that's missing, is- Mm-hmm how do we come back from conflict- Mm-hmm ...and repair this relationship without it- Mm-hmm ...writing a story of- Mm-hmm who we are, how we feel about each other, who's good, who's bad. Who walks away. Yeah. Who stays. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Makes a lotta sense.

Evan Q: 30:24
So it's good that we've a little bit about, you know, what this looks like. Um, walk me through a first session. the first 15 minutes under this model versus the old model. What does that look like? Who's involved? What, what kinds of questions are you asking? I know everything's nuanced and different.

Melissa: 30:43
Are we talking about the, the assessment stage or the first actual

Heather & Melissa: 30:46
clinical engagement?

Evan Q: 30:48
Well, I think probably we start with the assessment stage. Because the clinical engagement's gonna depend a lot on the specifics of the scenario, right? So I can't really ask you

Melissa: 30:58
provider

Evan Q: 30:58
a hypothetical. Yeah. And which provider's doing it because it's gonna-- it could be so different, right? But in the assessment phase, who's involved in this, and what kinds of

Heather & Melissa: 31:07
are they expecting

Evan Q: 31:08
when they walk in the door?

Heather: 31:11
Yeah, I

Heather & Melissa: 31:11
think initial involvement for me is always based very much in age range as well. Mm-hmm. So if we have an older kiddo,

Heather: 31:22
that to

Heather & Melissa: 31:23
me makes more sense maybe having them in the room. Um, younger kiddos, sometimes- Mm-hmm ...it's easier just to start with just parents. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think essentially some of the questions and what we'd be looking at is kind of the who, what, when,

Heather: 31:35
where, why of it all, right?

Heather & Melissa: 31:36
When is this

Heather: 31:37
happening? does

Heather & Melissa: 31:38
look? How often? Um, assessing kind of relationships. Who- Yeah

Heather: 31:46
is there one parent this

Heather & Melissa: 31:47
with more than maybe the other? Mm-hmm. Um, which always isn't a negative

Heather: 31:52
thing with the parent that it's happening with- Right ...Right Which I think sometimes- Right that gets

Heather & Melissa: 31:57
Um,

Heather: 31:57
but

Heather & Melissa: 31:58
yeah, kinda just going over

Heather: 31:59
the what are

Heather & Melissa: 32:00
seeing, how often are we seeing it, intensity levels, um,

Heather: 32:04
where- how.

Heather & Melissa: 32:06
Um, it can get a little bit frustrating I think and tedious at

Heather: 32:10
times. That's part

Heather & Melissa: 32:10
the process for parents I think to kind of- Mm-hmm hang on

Heather: 32:13
and

Heather & Melissa: 32:14
through that piece. Mm-hmm. Um, because sometimes it can feel a little redundant or like, "Why is this important for us to know?" Um, but I think that's gonna be the key part of our assessment is allowing it- Right to be a little bit more in depth. Yeah. Um, so we can kinda comb out those patterns. What we need to know, is there a parenting disconnect? Mm-hmm. From the beginning. And so

Melissa: 32:34
by sitting parents,

Heather & Melissa: 32:36
find out real quick, are they on the same parenting page? Right.

Melissa: 32:40
Are there

Heather & Melissa: 32:40
issues in

Melissa: 32:41
their relationship as Has there been

Heather & Melissa: 32:46
and bitterness that's built up? because

Melissa: 32:48
one

Heather & Melissa: 32:48
doing more of the parenting and the other

Melissa: 32:50
parent is maybe

Heather & Melissa: 32:51
more? Mm-hmm. Right. But

Melissa: 32:52
still, that's landing a lot, you

Heather & Melissa: 32:56
we're

Melissa: 32:56
not even talking about major issues

Heather & Melissa: 32:58
addictions or infidelities. Yeah. We're just talking about one is

Melissa: 33:02
more of the breadwinner Mm-hmm and the other one is navigating more

Heather & Melissa: 33:06
of the just home exhaustion. that could just be different roles

Evan Q: 33:10
more so than- Right anybody wrong.

Melissa: 33:12
Right. Yeah. And yet maybe they just

Heather & Melissa: 33:15
more support or more, more outlets.

Melissa: 33:18
You know- Sure I'm just thinking that

Heather & Melissa: 33:19
mom- Mm-hmm that's navigating kids alone- Mm-hmm

Melissa: 33:22
and navigating

Heather & Melissa: 33:23
behavioral issues, and maybe there's a disconnect in how each parent, maybe one, i- which often tends to be, one tends to be more harsh, one tends to be softer to

Melissa: 33:33
compensate.

Heather & Melissa: 33:35
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and then kids are feeding off of that. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 33:39
And while that one kid ending up diagnosed

Heather & Melissa: 33:44
maybe oppositional

Melissa: 33:45
defiance

Heather & Melissa: 33:47
Mm-hmm

Melissa: 33:48
Really,

Heather & Melissa: 33:49
it's a response to that family system. Mm-hmm. And we can't medicate that out of a family. Mm-hmm. Is It,

Evan Q: 33:55
is it, uh, I wanna hit this and then I wanna on with the assessment thing just for a minute. Um, but don't kids just find the path of least Absolutely like water or wind or anything else, right? Like, whatever the paths of- Mm-hmm path of least resistance is to get I want, like, that seems Mm-hmm ...very human to me. And l- kids are still little humans- Yes from what I I think they're gonna be- So

Melissa: 34:21
one will steal things. One will hide and avoid- to make sure that they're not

Heather & Melissa: 34:27
in the conflict. Yeah.

Melissa: 34:28
One will pit or triangulate one parent against the other. can I get the right answer from? Uh, you see this. Yeah. That's the externalizing

Heather & Melissa: 34:39
internalizing. Yeah. Well, and I hear that a lot from parents, too, and it comes off, like, in a very negative, the kinda negative connotation with being manipulative. Mm. My kid is so manipulative. Yep. And We

Heather: 34:49
We have one of those

Heather & Melissa: 34:50
know those data. they are.

Heather: 34:51
Right? Yeah. They are. But it's not from this- At least

Melissa: 34:54
one

Heather: 34:54
Yeah. It's not from

Heather & Melissa: 34:55
evil place of your kid wanting- Mm to be this evil mastermind and manipulate you. It's because they're trying to get a need met, which we- Right ...all- manipulate as human beings- Right to get needs met. We do. That's very normal. Mm-hmm. And the key is recognizing we're going about it in a negative way. Mm-hmm And that's where Dr. Becky Kennedy steps in and goes, "What is the need, and how can I

Melissa: 35:16
meet it-"

Heather & Melissa: 35:17
Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 35:18
so that my

Heather & Melissa: 35:19
doesn't resort to that. Yeah.

Evan Q: 35:22
So I said I wanted to stay on assessment and, and for lots of reasons, but the, the intake process mental health has been in the news a lot lately with different trials and things that are going on. And I wanna touch on that because I think there's a misconception or mis-misnomer about how those are... It's just you walk in, you fill out a form, and and that's the end of the, the intake process. There is a, certainly a form that gets filled out at the beginning that gives a baseline so that, and correct me where I'm wrong here, but that's so that, the clinician knows how to begin the interactions with you and then get down to business around how do we really get to the root cause of things here, right? But it's not just, you know, it's not just a form that sits in an insurance folder to cover behinds. It's not just, you know, a, a, form that we have fill out for no reason. Mm-hmm. There are structural reasons behind it, and you actually read them and use them in the work that you do, right? And it's very important those forms are filled out as honestly

Heather & Melissa: 36:24
and completely as possible, right?

Melissa: 36:26
Well, and that's where we meld it with because different directions.

Heather & Melissa: 36:31
One person will give you their entire life

Melissa: 36:34
history in those Yeah. And the other person will give glossy,

Heather & Melissa: 36:39
superficial,

Melissa: 36:40
I don't really know why I'm here version. And that's have

Heather & Melissa: 36:45
to look at the different services that we offer. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 36:47
And then we Hey, look, you

Heather & Melissa: 36:50
could really benefit from a couple, couple sessions-" Yeah

Melissa: 36:55
to iron out this

Heather & Melissa: 36:57
thing. Um, you could really benefit from the

Melissa: 37:01
parenting

Heather & Melissa: 37:02
aspect and

Melissa: 37:03
looking at it not

Heather & Melissa: 37:05
from you suck as a parent,

Melissa: 37:08
but how can we

Heather & Melissa: 37:09
you as a parent?" Because

Melissa: 37:10
oftentimes,

Heather & Melissa: 37:11
and, and tell me if you disagree, I think it's empowering parents- Yeah

Melissa: 37:17
to control,

Heather & Melissa: 37:21
to parent.

Melissa: 37:23
We are not their friend. I'm-

Heather: 37:26
Yeah

Melissa: 37:26
I am not your friend.

Heather & Melissa: 37:27
I am your parent. I am here to guide you and keep you safe and

Melissa: 37:32
try to help you not be completely stupid. Mm-hmm. But I'm here to catch you when you are

Heather & Melissa: 37:37
Yeah. Yeah. Working to help parents trust themselves. Mm-hmm. And I

Heather: 37:41
think it's part of that

Heather & Melissa: 37:42
piece. I think the generation of parents that we see coming up were raised by parents who didn't take accountability, so they are working so hard. Like, I'm seeing more and more with maybe, like, elder millennial parents to not make any- Hey. To

Heather: 37:58
not make any mistake. It's

Heather & Melissa: 38:00
If

Heather: 38:00
I... I don't wanna get it wrong." I

Melissa: 38:01
think it's the younger millennial

Heather & Melissa: 38:02
Mm. Honestly. Maybe, yeah.

Melissa: 38:05
yeah. So, I mean, you're 1980,

Heather & Melissa: 38:07
1983. So

Melissa: 38:08
we're-

Evan Q: 38:08
Thanks for outing me.

Heather & Melissa: 38:10
Um, okay. Um, we

Melissa: 38:12
are very early millennial parents that are really blended

Heather & Melissa: 38:16
in with the Gen X parents.

Melissa: 38:18
And I feel like,

Heather & Melissa: 38:20
so we've been

Melissa: 38:21
called the FAFO parents. The fuck around and find

Heather & Melissa: 38:25
out. Yeah.

Melissa: 38:26
And what

Heather & Melissa: 38:27
I'm seeing is it's

Melissa: 38:28
the younger millennials- that,

Heather & Melissa: 38:31
into about your age. Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm right on the cusp-

Melissa: 38:34
You're-

Heather: 38:35
where I'm at

Melissa: 38:35
So you're a cusp. So I'm like- And we're a cusp. Yeah.

Heather: 38:37
Yes.

Heather & Melissa: 38:37
I'm right between Gen Z and Millennial, so. And it's, you're

Melissa: 38:42
right, it's all about

Heather & Melissa: 38:43
feelings. Mm-hmm. Our kids and their feel, and, and okay,

Melissa: 38:47
I just wanna say as a therapist, yes, my children's feelings matter.

Heather: 38:51
Sure.

Melissa: 38:52
And cannot

Heather & Melissa: 38:54
be the controlling factor. Well, and parent, parents nowadays weren't raised by parents who- Nope knew how to repair. No. So I think

Heather: 39:03
parents get wrapped up in

Heather & Melissa: 39:04
idea of, Well, I just can't make a mistake 'cause there is no repair. Once I make a mistake, I'm impacting this-" That's interesting,

Melissa: 39:11
because you're talking about the boomers-

Heather & Melissa: 39:16
Mm as parents

Melissa: 39:19
You're talking about... Yes, and I think some

Heather & Melissa: 39:23
millennial parents,

Melissa: 39:24
especially earlier,

Heather & Melissa: 39:26
like

Melissa: 39:27
earlier

Heather & Melissa: 39:27
millennial parents are catching onto that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 39:32
I did not

Heather & Melissa: 39:33
connect it coming from the boomer parents. Mm.

Evan Q: 39:36
So you, w- we've- Yeah actually talked a lot about the parents here, and you, Melissa, had mentioned marriage, uh, specifically, and uh, just pointedly, how often is the problem actually a marriage

Heather & Melissa: 39:49
problem

Evan Q: 39:50
and not a kid problem?

Melissa: 39:53
I think more often it's a parenting

Heather & Melissa: 39:54
problem Yeah

Evan Q: 39:58
that

Heather & Melissa: 39:58
go hand in

Evan Q: 39:59
with marriage problems, or maybe not

Melissa: 40:02
Well, it causes

Heather & Melissa: 40:02
problems. Yeah. It's, yeah. Like how it is. Where there's cracks, right, like the cracks start to happen in lots of different areas- Mm-hmm and it's kind of hard, 'cause sometimes it's a little bit of the chicken or the egg, right? Yeah. Like, is it because we're having a hard time getting on the same page as parents, or are we having a hard time being a

Heather: 40:21
couple-

Heather & Melissa: 40:22
Mm-hmm which is impacting our ability to like come together as parents. Right. It's kind of vice versa. It can be really tough to kind of

Heather: 40:28
sniff that out, which is the point kind of of what we're doing- fill in all the

Heather & Melissa: 40:34
where they need to be filled.

Melissa: 40:35
Well, you know I do couples work, too. Mm-hmm. And it's super with we've all figured out by this

Heather & Melissa: 40:41
point I'm not shy. I'm

Melissa: 40:43
very direct. to sit down with a couple and say, "Look,

Heather & Melissa: 40:48
do you want to figure this out

Melissa: 40:52
and have it work and, and stay a family and parent your kids together?" Mm-hmm. "Or do you just wanna keep

Heather & Melissa: 40:57
on attacking each other- and blaming each other?"

Melissa: 41:00
And it usually is like a glass of cold water that you've thrown on somebody. Yeah.

Evan Q: 41:04
Yeah.

Melissa: 41:05
And the shock hits, and that's the come

Heather & Melissa: 41:09
Jesus moment-

Melissa: 41:10
of what do we

Heather & Melissa: 41:12
really want here?

Melissa: 41:13
And so I see your point completely that

Heather & Melissa: 41:15
sometimes when you

Melissa: 41:17
address those marriage

Heather & Melissa: 41:18
issues- Mm-hmm

Melissa: 41:20
now we're a united

Heather & Melissa: 41:21
front and we're actually partners. Mm-hmm. And

Melissa: 41:23
we see a drastic

Heather & Melissa: 41:24
difference even

Melissa: 41:25
in, quality time with kids- Mm spending quality other- ...how

Heather & Melissa: 41:30
we're approaching parenting. Mm-hmm, yeah.

Melissa: 41:33
Versus we're just on opposite pages of the parenting

Heather & Melissa: 41:36
book

Melissa: 41:37
and that's causing

Heather & Melissa: 41:39
marriage issues. Mm.

Melissa: 41:40
but really, like, we

Heather & Melissa: 41:42
need to figure out how to parent. Mm-hmm, yeah. And sometimes true the other way, right?

Heather: 41:47
If

Heather & Melissa: 41:47
I- Yeah can show up and co-parent and we can- Mm-hmm get on the same page in parenting, we're building trust. That goes- As a couple even beyond just, just the Yeah ...parenting dynamic. It leads into- Mm oh, you showed up differently here- Yeah in a way that I needed you to meet that need in parenting. Right. And that allows me to just feel closer to you as the partner. Which builds intimacy as partners. Yeah. 

Heather & Melissa: 42:10
Yeah.

Evan Q: 42:11
So we've, we've talked about all the ways that this work fits. Um, I wanna talk about, you know, some places where maybe it doesn't fit, where maybe it's the wrong call, and, and how you can assess that. But we'll start, um, maybe with teens first. So you have a 15-year-old, and I think it was mentioned a little bit earlier, but you have, like, a 15-year-old, doesn't want their parents in the room. How do you still conduct family work and hold a

Heather & Melissa: 42:39
privacy at bay?

Evan Q: 42:39
at the same time?

Heather: 42:43
I'd say

Heather & Melissa: 42:43
pacing. Mm-hmm. I think

Heather: 42:45
that's where

Heather & Melissa: 42:46
you work really hard to work individually with the teen and work with the parents, uh,

Heather: 42:53
figure out what, how, how did we get here? How

Heather & Melissa: 42:56
we get to the point where the 15-year-old's not even comfortable sitting in a room with their parents And having these conversations? and how do we heal maybe s- those certain things separately- Mm-hmm to be able to be confident enough to come in a room together and know it's not gonna end in attack and blame and shame and all of those things that, in my head, I'm assuming is probably going on for the 15-year-old hearing that. Um- Well, I'm thinking it's lack of relationship. yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: 43:19
in experience,

Heather & Melissa: 43:22
as kids get

Melissa: 43:23
older,

Heather & Melissa: 43:23
so often parents still want to micromanage and

Melissa: 43:29
control

Heather & Melissa: 43:30
and dictate- Mm-hmm instead of allowing kids to use them as a resource. A consultant

Melissa: 43:39
is what I often

Heather & Melissa: 43:40
talk about it being. Yeah. You're in a

Melissa: 43:41
consultant

Heather & Melissa: 43:42
role. Mm-hmm. And I mean, who

Melissa: 43:45
out of

Heather & Melissa: 43:45
us wants to sit and be judged and condemned- Yeah and shamed for crappy choices? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then Kids internalizing that. Mm-hmm. It's, I think it's really hard when your kid is doing things that you know are

Melissa: 44:00
good choices. Yeah.

Heather & Melissa: 44:03
And you

Melissa: 44:03
jump in, and you

Heather & Melissa: 44:04
want them to stop, and yet to be able to step back and go, "You know what? I'm here, but you're gonna have to deal with your own consequences." Like- Mm-hmm whatever falls is gonna fall. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that's some of the skill building that we would work on with parents, too. That's a common thing of how do we even ask questions or engage- Yeah. with our teens where it doesn't

Heather: 44:25
come off,

Heather & Melissa: 44:26
You know, I always use the example of like, "Well, why'd you do that?"

Heather: 44:30
How,

Heather & Melissa: 44:30
Why? Yeah. Why'd you do that?

Heather: 44:32
Um-

Melissa: 44:32
Instant defensiveness.

Heather: 44:33
Exactly. Instead of- You're judging me.

Melissa: 44:35
Mm-hmm.

Heather: 44:35
Right? Like y- Yep I did something wrong. You're

Heather & Melissa: 44:37
making me feel small and bad because I made a mistake. Right. Right? Rather than, "What was, what were you feeling- Right when you made that decision- Yeah to..."

Melissa: 44:46
what was, going through your head?

Heather: 44:49
Yeah.

Heather & Melissa: 44:50
Yeah.

Evan Q: 44:51
me defensive. Yeah. What, when is, when is- Not a good

Melissa: 44:55
one to ask.

Evan Q: 44:55
No. Yeah.

Melissa: 44:56
No.

Evan Q: 44:56
When is family systems work the

Heather & Melissa: 44:58
wrong call? Like, is this

Evan Q: 45:00
that's not a good one to ask. No, no. When is family systems work the wrong call? Like, when is this a where just the kid should be seen alone and the parents don't really need to be involved?

Heather & Melissa: 45:04
Mm I mean, I would say safety

Heather & Melissa: 45:07
 is a big

Heather: 45:07
indicator of that. You

Heather & Melissa: 45:08
know, if there's abuse happening- Mm or a parent is abusive in any way, shape, or form, that's not really something that- We won't- would foster healthy- It's unethical- Yeah, yeah to pursue down that path. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 45:22
I mean, even to do couples counseling, if there's abuse happening- we won't do

Heather & Melissa: 45:28
it

Melissa: 45:28
because you're putting somebody in a

Heather & Melissa: 45:30
vulnerable space- Yeah ...only to have that abuse per- be perpetuated. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Evan Q: 45:39
So Heather, in our rollout think most of the complex cases are gonna fall on your plate. Um, what makes a case complex to

Heather & Melissa: 45:48
you? Hmm. How would you

Evan Q: 45:50
define that?

Heather & Melissa: 45:53
I think when I hear the word complexity, I think of many layers. Mm-hmm. Um, so there

Heather: 46:00
no one

Heather & Melissa: 46:01
culprit or issue, and again,

Heather: 46:04
a lot of times

Heather & Melissa: 46:04
what leads to complexity is when you're kind of scratching your head and doing the chicken or the egg thing. Yep. Right? Is,

Heather: 46:10
is A leading to B, or is B leading to C, or is B leading to A, right? Like trying to sometimes ...figure

Heather & Melissa: 46:16
that out, and I think sometimes that's a parallel

Heather: 46:20
for both

Heather & Melissa: 46:20
me and the families that I work with, and sometimes the why doesn't matter, it's the how. Right. It doesn't

Heather: 46:25
why I did this thing to

Heather & Melissa: 46:27
get to this point. It's how did I get to this point? How do I stop ending up at this point? Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that helps simplify the complexity. but yes, I feel like when I think of complex, I think of lots of family history of trauma. I mean, that's something that I did in family therapy that's also really hard for parents to kind of understand or come around to, but I think I will probably be implementing a little bit more of doing, um, a comprehensive, like, timeline of your life,

Heather: 46:52
right? What

Heather & Melissa: 46:53
have you experienced as a parent, and where

Heather: 46:55
do those complexities of

Heather & Melissa: 46:57
not only your partner but your child? Sure. Um, and kind of breaking... A lot of times it's really breaking it down to the foundation to kind of build back up from there. So yeah, I feel like the complex part is the many many, many layers, many, many different experiences, backgrounds, histories. All of those things. And if we can come in as cycle breakers- Mm-hmm and just break one cycle at a time- Mm-hmm

Melissa: 47:22
that's

Heather & Melissa: 47:23
one less layer of complexity that we have to navigate. Mm-hmm. So if we just talk to families and

Melissa: 47:31
out

Heather & Melissa: 47:31
what's the hardest layer for you- Mm-hmm

Melissa: 47:34
what do you

Heather & Melissa: 47:35
see as being the, the hardest- most difficult to bear layer, Well, that we can navigate, and you're not gonna be doing this alone. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: 47:44
not only are you but we're also clinical

Heather & Melissa: 47:48
providers. Yes. So we're getting lots of different viewpoints on this, and flushing out...

Melissa: 48:00
We're, we're also

Heather & Melissa: 48:00
looking at families again

Melissa: 48:02
that want

Heather & Melissa: 48:04
to be here and do the work. They

Melissa: 48:06
want

Heather & Melissa: 48:07
a healthier relationship with their kid. Mm-hmm. So they're here to figure out how to do that. Mm-hmm. Um, we are not crisis.

Evan Q: 48:15
Yeah. Yeah. So let's get candid here. Let's get a li- little real. Where... What's

Heather & Melissa: 48:22
case where

Evan Q: 48:23
seen this model

Heather & Melissa: 48:23
actually fail, and what did you learn

Evan Q: 48:25
it?

Heather & Melissa: 48:26
from it?

Melissa: 48:26
this is a new model. So it's never been done before.

Evan Q: 48:29
No, that's, that's true. But I know, you know, Heather, you have a background in family based therapy, and I'm sure you've seen some of these things implode, and you've alluded to it a little bit earlier. Mm-hmm. Without getting into, you know, HIPAA details.

Heather: 48:42
sure, sure,

Heather & Melissa: 48:43
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think more times than not the ones where it would go poorly or it would fail, or there would be no resolution, or half the time these families that are coming to mind I would get fired from before we would even hit the- Yep eight month,

Heather: 49:02
were

Heather & Melissa: 49:03
parents who were just not ready or willing to take accountability. Um, if you are not in a space to receive

Heather: 49:11
feedback-

Heather & Melissa: 49:12
Mm-hmm or again, it's not even the idea of having a hard time of wanting to do something different. That's normal, that's natural. Change is hard. Um, but being committed to blaming your child, this will not work.

Evan Q: 49:27
Fair enough.

Heather: 49:27
Or your

Heather & Melissa: 49:28
Or

Evan Q: 49:28
Or your spouse, Or your spouse. yes.

Heather: 49:29
cannot look at yourself- If

Evan Q: 49:30
you can't look at yourself, right? Yes. And say, "I'm doing something here. Where, where's my pl- my point in this," right? So for parents that are listening right now, a parent hears all of this and they're thinking, "Okay, it's my fault." what, what do you wanna say to them directly? I'll give each of you an opportunity to give your comments on this. I'll start with you, Heather

Heather & Melissa: 49:52
Mm-hmm. What's the

Melissa: 49:53
again?

Evan Q: 49:55
So a parent's hearing this and saying, "Okay, so it's my fault." What would you say to them directly? What would, What would, be your initial

Heather & Melissa: 50:01
what would be your initial response to that? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think Melissa kind of pointed it out of, you know, it's not

Heather: 50:09
necessarily looking

Heather & Melissa: 50:10
for somebody to blame, it's looking for a solution.

Heather: 50:13
Um,

Heather & Melissa: 50:15
and yeah, I mean, the idea of, it- we all have blind spots. It's not doing something that's maybe not

Heather: 50:24
helpful

Heather & Melissa: 50:24
or more hurtful than helpful or doing something that maybe impacts the system in a way that keeps these patterns playing out, is not necessarily a criticism. Mm-hmm. It's just meant to be, like, we're highlighting what's going on, and we can do something different with it. And a lot of times too, it's this idea of you're just using this in the wrong way.

Heather: 50:48
There's actually

Heather & Melissa: 50:48
a strength that lies

Heather: 50:50
this. We

Heather & Melissa: 50:50
just have to tweak how we're using it. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that sometimes that can help a little bit of like, "No, this is good." Mm-hmm. Like, this part of your personality

Heather: 50:59
style of

Heather & Melissa: 50:59
doing things can be used. Mm-hmm. We just have to use it over here instead of over here. Um, yeah, trying to eliminate some of that shaming and blaming, and I think that also models it for the parents of how to do that with their kids. Absolutely.

Melissa: 51:13
I would

Heather & Melissa: 51:14
say you're also part of the solution. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 51:17
So yes, you

Heather & Melissa: 51:18
are a part of the problem, and we have to look at how that happened. Yeah. Because

Melissa: 51:24
I would congratulate you for being able to say, "Look, I'm part of this puzzle." Um, I would be for any

Heather & Melissa: 51:33
parent who believes they're perfect and not part of, of

Melissa: 51:38
any family dynamic. Because every family has a dynamic.

Heather & Melissa: 51:42
Yeah. But...

Melissa: 51:43
And, and every family has problems in their dynamic.

Heather & Melissa: 51:47
Mm-hmm. So it's more about

Melissa: 51:50
As a family,

Heather & Melissa: 51:51
we want to become healthier. Mm-hmm. We wanna learn to communicate better with each other. We wanna learn to solve problems in a healthier way together. Mm-hmm. We just wanna have

Melissa: 52:00
healthier relationships,

Heather & Melissa: 52:02
and we need some help to find that path.

Melissa: 52:06
So here we are. These are the areas

Heather & Melissa: 52:09
where we're having issues,

Melissa: 52:10
that in

Heather & Melissa: 52:10
and of itself is a huge strength as a family.

Evan Q: 52:13
Yeah.

Heather & Melissa: 52:14
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Evan Q: 52:14
So what's one thing a parent can change this week they ever call a

Heather & Melissa: 52:19
a therapist

Evan Q: 52:20
that will help move the needle for them? Tell their child

Melissa: 52:23
they're

Heather & Melissa: 52:23
sorry. Mm.

Melissa: 52:25
When they blow up this week,

Heather & Melissa: 52:26
or when they make that snarky comment, or

Melissa: 52:31
whatever

Heather & Melissa: 52:32
it is,

Melissa: 52:33
go to your

Heather & Melissa: 52:34
child and say, "I love you. I had a bad moment, and I lost it. And I am really sorry that I was not able to better regulate for you. I will work on that." Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and I'd say along the same lines, looking to highlight something that your child did well, even if it's a week- Mm that feels like it's from hell.

Heather: 53:00
Like, where can we

Heather & Melissa: 53:01
lean in that, hey, sure, maybe they smashed the TV, but this time they

Heather: 53:07
ki- They helped clean

Melissa: 53:07
it up.

Heather: 53:08
Yeah, they helped clean it

Heather & Melissa: 53:08
up

Heather: 53:09
Yeah. They didn't kick their dog on the way out the room, right? Well, they

Melissa: 53:12
didn't. So. They didn't kick that hole in the wall.

Evan Q: 53:13
Yeah. That's it. So how does a parent tell the difference between normal hard

Heather & Melissa: 53:18
and it's time to get help hard? Mm. I

Evan Q: 53:19
to get help hard?

Heather & Melissa: 53:21
think it's always time to get help. Yeah.

Evan Q: 53:24
I was gonna ask, is this like a when in doubt, come talk it out type of scenario or- Yeah,

Melissa: 53:27
I mean, if what you're doing isn't working,

Heather & Melissa: 53:30
get help. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 53:32
It doesn't, there's

Heather & Melissa: 53:33
no s- I mean,

Melissa: 53:34
is a scale. I was

Heather & Melissa: 53:35
gonna say there isn't

Melissa: 53:36
a scale of badness,

Heather & Melissa: 53:38
but there kind of is. Sure. Um,

Melissa: 53:39
I mean, your kid might not

Heather & Melissa: 53:40
be mule-kicking

Melissa: 53:43
in walls.

Heather & Melissa: 53:44
Mm-hmm.

Melissa: 53:45
But maybe they're door can't figure out what's going wrong. Or maybe as the parent, you're

Heather & Melissa: 53:53
being triggered by something Mm-hmm

Melissa: 53:56
and having a hard So let's figure it out before it gets to that next level.

Heather & Melissa: 54:04
Yeah. Yes. I

Heather: 54:04
gonna say, it's

Heather & Melissa: 54:05
always, always, always better to be

Heather: 54:07
proactive Reactive.

Heather & Melissa: 54:09
Let's just wait and see till

Heather: 54:10
gets bad, and then we're really in

Heather & Melissa: 54:12
a bad space. And I think- It's harder to change. Yeah. And sometimes, too, even starting out with families who maybe would be on

Heather: 54:18
the lower end of

Heather & Melissa: 54:19
that scale- Mm of sometimes even therapy being used as just being intentional about getting an hour in together as a family for the week. Mm-hmm. And building the relationships back, Like, that is therapy, and that's- Right that can be just as important as the family who's coming in with the kid who is kicking holes in the wall.

Melissa: 54:36
And I think

Heather & Melissa: 54:37
that's the hard part for families is

Melissa: 54:38
feel like

Heather & Melissa: 54:39
it has to be bad enough

Melissa: 54:40
go to therapy. A- and even as

Heather & Melissa: 54:42
humans, as just people, it's gotta be bad enough, and we forget that it's also maintenance. Mm-hmm. It's skill-building.

Melissa: 54:49
We're not doing maintenance and skill building when we're in So a family comes in, and if they are towards the crisis we're gonna spend two, three months- just trying to navigate not

Heather & Melissa: 55:03
working on some

Melissa: 55:05
of those

Heather & Melissa: 55:05
lower acuity things. Yeah. Absolutely.

Evan Q: 55:10
a sign a family is actually not like a clinical measure, not something you'd look at and say on a scale, you know, but like what do you see when there... Is it, it like, is it repair? Is it starting to see that? Is that when

Heather & Melissa: 55:24
you know that there's an improvement happening? Hmm. Can I tell you what first came to my mind? Yeah. Individuals in the family unit appear happier. Hmm. They're more relaxed. Yeah.

Heather: 55:36
was gonna say

Heather & Melissa: 55:36
comfortability. Yeah. Like almost a little bit of a sense of emotional safety. Yeah. Able to communicate, even if it's not, you know, deep-rooted stuff, just, just a kid sharing about their day, you

Melissa: 55:49
want They

Heather & Melissa: 55:51
want to engage with each other. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Evan Q: 55:57
Okay, a couple closing questions, one for each of you. Melissa, Melissa finished This in three years, if this works.

Heather & Melissa: 56:05
Lancaster

Evan Q: 56:06
are saying what

Heather & Melissa: 56:08
about how counseling works?

Evan Q: 56:09
works?

Heather & Melissa: 56:10
That it can be extremely

Melissa: 56:13
and

Heather & Melissa: 56:14
and money well spent with the right

Melissa: 56:18
provider

Heather & Melissa: 56:19
supporting you

Evan Q: 56:21
Okay. Heather, in one sentence to the parent still sitting the parking lot deciding whether

Heather & Melissa: 56:27
or not to Come in. Hmm

Heather: 56:32
Come in. Give it a shot.

Heather & Melissa: 56:35
Try

Melissa: 56:35
out

Heather: 56:35
something new.

Melissa: 56:36
Yeah.

Heather: 56:36
Yeah.

Evan Q: 56:37
What's

Heather & Melissa: 56:37
the worst that can happen? Right.

Melissa: 56:39
the definition of

Heather & Melissa: 56:39
insanity? Right, yeah.

Melissa: 56:42
Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting this different result.

Heather & Melissa: 56:46
Yes. Well, and I think that's a family- therapy or normal therapy, right? Individual therapy. Mm-hmm. I, I hear that

Heather: 56:53
all the so

Heather & Melissa: 56:55
intimidating and so scary to come and do, and now that I'm here..." Like,

Heather: 57:00
usually by the end of a initial intake or assessment, I usually check in, "When you came in today, you were really, really anxious. How are we feeling walking away?" Yeah.

Melissa: 57:09
So much better.

Heather: 57:11
Yeah.

Evan Q: 57:14
Well, been

Heather & Melissa: 57:15
a great, uh, discussion. Heather,

Evan Q: 57:17
thank you for be stranger. We wanna do more of these.

Melissa: 57:20
Yeah. We enjoyed having you here.

Evan Q: 57:22
Yeah.

Melissa: 57:23
This was fun.

Evan Q: 57:23
It was really a lot

Heather & Melissa: 57:24
of fun. Yeah.

Evan Q: 57:24
Yeah. So

Heather & Melissa: 57:25
Cool. Next we've gotta bring in

Melissa: 57:27
to talk about sex. Yeah.

Evan Q: 57:28
Yeah, okay.

Melissa: 57:29
Yeah. Sex and intimacy.

Evan Q: 57:32
All right. Sex and intimacy. You've heard it here. here. It's up next. Stay tuned. Thanks everybody.