Evan: 1:16

Welcome back to another episode of the Unmentionables podcast. This is Evan, as always, here with Melissa.

Melissa: 1:24

Good morning.

Evan: 1:25

Good morning, Melissa. How are you?

Melissa: 1:26

I'm doing good. I've had my coffee ready to go.

Evan: 1:30

Yeah, I heard you got a hand delivered at in the parking lot at Starbucks.

Melissa: 1:36

This random guy just showed up at the side of my my car with coffee and a sandwich.

Evan: 1:42

And knew exactly what you wanted. I know, right? It's weird. It's weird how that happens. Love it. So we have a couple of things to talk about today, as usual. We have a backlog for those of you that don't know.

Melissa: 1:53

Well, you know, when you go to fun country events, sometimes we miss a production.

Evan: 1:59

Yeah, yeah. So we have a backlog of topics to talk about. There is one that is, you know, top of mind, important. It's been mentioned in the news and some, you know, on some radio shows and podcasts recently. It's a topic out of the state of Colorado, and it impacts the mental health therapy space. And it kind of relates to a previous episode that we did on gender ideology. And this one is uh Colorado Law, House Bill 19-1129. And this law is about what they call conversion therapy. And we'll talk a little bit about the definition of conversion therapy as we go through this. So I want to give a quick summary of the law in Colorado, this House bill in Colorado, and the case that's surrounding it, in case some of our listeners may not be familiar with it. This is uh Chiles v Salazar. This is about Kaylee Chiles, a licensed professional counselor and a Christian counselor specifically, who runs a faith-based practice in Colorado, and she is challenging a 2019 law that bans licensed therapists from providing, you know, quote unquote conversion therapy to minors. She is arguing that the ban violates free speech and free exercise of religion. The state says it's a professional conduct regulation, not censorship of speech. The Supreme Court heard our oral arguments on October 7th, and the decision around this could reshape how states regulate speech inside professional practice. But Melissa, I really want to start with a question for you. As a therapist, if you're helping a minor explore identity, that's considered speech. But when the state is banning certain conversations, is that regulating treatment or thought? And where's the line between protecting kids from harm and protecting adults' right to advise according to their conscience?

Melissa: 3:57

Sure. That's a great question. You know, as a clinician, we're obviously regulated by the state licensing body. And in social work, we have a code of ethics, psychology does as well. And they're not exactly the same. There are minute differences that exist. But the foundation of this is first do no harm. And when our clients come to us, our personal views and beliefs shouldn't be playing a role unless that's the type of organization that you're in. So if you have a Christian counseling agency and that's what they are advertised as, of course, you're gonna expect a faith-based Christian counselor and all of the worldviews that go with that.

Evan: 4:51

Sure.

Melissa: 4:52

When we're in a traditional counseling practice, we recognize that there are people that come from all different places in life. You have faith-based clinicians, you have non-faith-based clinicians, you have spiritual ones. And that should never play a role unless a client is explicitly asking for someone who comes from one perspective or another. And at that point, you know, we're able to say, yes, I align with that, no, I don't, you know, how does your religion or faith or worldview impact this situation? So I think it's very interesting that they're coming in now in Colorado and trying to limit the faith-based practices. And there's there doesn't seem to be a recognition of what is my client asking of me? And is that what I am providing? Yeah. I don't know if I answered your question.

Evan: 5:55

That's a great perspective.

Melissa: 5:56

Do you think we could talk about maybe the definition that they're using of conversion therapy? And then maybe I can talk a little bit about what I think it is.

Evan: 6:08

Sure, sure. Yeah, so you know, again, this is the Colorado law. You guys listening can look it up on your own to see the words for yourself in the original text. That's House Bill 19-1129 concerning prohibiting a mental health care provider from engaging in conversion therapy with a patient under the age of 18 years of age. And what this bill essentially does is it modifies various sections of Colorado law. Most bills are like this, right? So if it's not an originally written piece of legislation, most legislation is amending something or amending sections, things like this is all sort of legal, you know, government inside baseball that would confuse most people. And, you know, if we went back 10 or 15 years before I was a Tea Party advocate and and and you know founder, I wouldn't have known any of this either. But I my got my uh baptism under fire by reading the Obamacare legislation when it came out and learning how to read legislation. So just shortcutting it for those of you who may not be. Melissa's eyes are rolling into the back of her head right now.

Melissa: 7:15

How many pages was that?

Evan: 7:17

Thousands. I don't have the exact number. I think it was like 1700 something pages.

Melissa: 7:21

And how many politicians actually read the whole thing?

Evan: 7:23

Well, I can tell you this for certain because I was in Delaware at the time, Mike Castle did not. And I know that because we had him cornered on a at a conference table at one point with the Tea Party people sitting around the table, and we all asked him point blank, Did you read it? Did you read it? And he he hemmed and hauled and eventually said, No, that's why I have staffers. And I said, So you haven't read a page of this bill. I've read the entire thing. We've all sitting around this table read the entire thing, and you haven't read any of it, and you're the one that's gonna vote on it.

Melissa: 7:50

Right.

Evan: 7:50

And we told him about things that were in the bill, and he's like, I don't believe that's actually in there. And I'm like, well, here's the section page, whatever. And he goes, Well, I can't support that. And I was like, but you have already voted for it.

Melissa: 8:02

I I think it is fascinating how many people that are supposed to be reading this stuff are depending on other people for interpretations.

Evan: 8:11

Well, remember the famous line from Nancy Pelosi about the Obamacare bill. We have to pass the bill to find out what is in it.

Melissa: 8:19

Oh.

Evan: 8:20

So let's talk about this Colorado law that they passed before I think anybody of any substance read it.

Melissa: 8:27

Thought about what was actually in it and how it would impact practice.

Evan: 8:29

Exactly, exactly. So you asked how they define conversion therapy. And, you know, again, as you read the law, you're going to see conversion therapy defined several times. It's pretty much the exact same definition, just plugged into different areas. There are areas of the law that cover physicians and areas of the law that covers licensed practitioners like social workers and therapists, right? So they're different areas because one deals with social work and mental health, and one deals with medical physicians, right? Conversion therapy, this is from the from the bill. Conversion therapy means any practice or treatment by a licensed physician or therapist specializing in the practice of psychiatry that attempts to purport or purports to change an individual's sexual orientation or gender identity, including efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions, or to eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attraction or feelings toward individuals of the same sex. Conversion therapy does not include practices or treatments that provide acceptance, support, and understanding for the facilitation of an individual's coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, including sexual orientation neutral interventions to prevent or address unlawful contact or unsafe sexual practices, as long as the counselor does not seek to change sexual orientation or gender identity or assist assistance to a person undergoing gender transition. There is a lot there. So it goes on to further define in the statute that unprofessional conduct, as used in this article, means engaging in conversion therapy with a patient who is under 18 years of age. They talk about certified addiction counselors, they talk about you know licensed social workers or you know therapists, they talk about physicians and I want to know, right?

Melissa: 10:20

Is it conversion therapy if a client comes to me and says it's against my beliefs to, you know, feel like I'm a different gender. I want you to help me figure out why I feel this way and you know, help help me not feel this way anymore.

Evan: 10:45

As the law reads, and this is the crux of the reason why this lawsuit was brought by Kaley Chiles in, you know, filed in 2019 immediately after the law was passed, and it's been through district court in Colorado and the 10th Circuit Court and is now sitting at the Supreme Court. But that's the reason why she brought this case, is because it's that is the way her practice is set up. So she is a certified counselor, a licensed, you know, clinical social worker. She has a practice where it is faith-based and it is very clear that she is faith-based. Her clients come to her specifically because she is faith-based and she is giving them the faith faith-based perspectives on this. That doesn't mean she's a minister. She's not a pastor, which by the way, in the law, there is a carve-out for the ministry and pastors. However, those ministry and pastors cannot actually say say that they have a license in clinical social work, even if they do, right? They can't promote that because then it becomes professional conduct versus a religious.

Melissa: 11:51

Sure. And here's where I really see the difference. And I do want to note, she is an LPC, which is a degree in psychology and very different than what we do in social work, social work being an art and psychology being a science. But I think the real contention here is if I am first to do no harm, that means that I'm looking to my client for what is it that you feel isn't going well for you or right for you right now? What changes do you want to make? And how can I help you get there?

Evan: 12:31

Is that a difference without a distinction? That's a word, between exploration and direction. Direction seems to me I'm guiding you where I want you to go. Where exploration is like, talk to me. Tell me what you're feeling, and you know, I can help you navigate the road because it's not easy, right? But I'm not going to tell you whether you're right or wrong. Is that what basically you're talking about?

Melissa: 12:56

Social work is a very holistic field. And we do for the most part, most of us that are are trained under a social work degree or license believe that we're just there to help somebody else. We're on that path to participate in their journey. But the journey is theirs to determine where they want to go. So if I have a client that comes in and says, Hey, I really want to cheat on my spouse, I'm gonna sit back and say, Okay, let's explore that. Let's talk about the different possibilities that come from that. And that client might say, you know, I think I'm gonna get this need met. This person listens to me and hears me. And, you know, I think that this is this is the right path. Okay, well, what are some other paths that this might take? What are what are some other possibilities? She might say, Well, you know, my spouse could get mad. Okay. And what would happen from that? You know, our job is to ask the questions, kind of like your job here. You ask the questions and I give you the answers. And and that's coming from Lancaster County, right? There used to be conversion camps where the parent, and you particularly saw this in the religious communities, the the Mennonite, the Amish. If a child was homosexual, send them to conversion camp. We'll make them be straight. And I think that was the intent of the law was that we can't impose something on someone if that's not what they desire for their own life. We're talking about autonomy here. And we see autonomy come out in so, so many places in our society these days. We talk about autonomy with our kids. You know, children have the autonomy to determine who do I want to have relationships with?

Evan: 15:00

Yeah.

Melissa: 15:01

What relationships feel good, what relationships don't feel good. They have autonomy to make those decisions, at least they should. So it basically told the clinical community we're not going to allow providers or parents to force their values onto children.

Evan: 15:21

It's interesting that you bring up Pennsylvania because uh in addition to Colorado, there are numerous other states. I think in total, it's 23 states plus DC that have enacted comprehensive bans restricting licensed mental health professionals from from performing conversion therapy on minors. And since you brought up Pennsylvania, I happen to have looked up the Pennsylvania regulatory landscape around this. And there is an existing statute from 2023 that prohibits mental health professionals. This is a quote from from Pennsylvania, an act prohibiting mental health professionals from engaging in conversion therapy with an individual under 18 years of age. And it the text states prohibiting mental health professionals from engaging in conversion therapy with an individual under 18 years of age. Being lesbian, gay, or bisexual is not a disease, disorder, illness, deficiency, or shortcoming. The major professional associations of mental health practitioners have recognized this fact for more than 40 years. Portions of this are still in committee being legislated or being worked through. But in August of 2022, Governor Wolf signed an executive order directing state agencies to ensure that no funds, no state funds, are used to support conversion therapy. So that portions of this are already sort of de facto happening, even though they really haven't made it all the way fully through the Pennsylvania General Assembly.

Melissa: 16:49

I actually remember when this came out, and I remember having these conversations that all revolved around I can't force my beliefs on somebody else. And parents ought to not be forcing their own beliefs or choices onto children. And so that meant a parent couldn't drag their kid to therapy and demand that I make sure that they have the same religious beliefs as the parent. And it honestly just seemed like common sense to us because you can't force anyone to change at all in any area unless it's a change that they see as warranted and want to invest themselves in that process.

Evan: 17:46

Well, and I yeah, again, you keep bringing up things that I'm about to discuss. So I appreciate you being able to read my mind. I guess that's what makes you a good therapist. There, let's talk about the religious carve out and what this looks like. Colorado and most of these other states, they say that pastors can still do this. They can have these conversion therapy discussions with minors or adults or whatever, because they're outside of the professional licensing system, but licensed Christian counselors providing faith-based therapy can't. Is that punishing professionalism or is it protecting religious spaces while holding licensed health providers to the secular medical standard?

Melissa: 18:29

So I think this is really interesting actually, because A, I definitely think that it's it's protecting religious freedom. But at least in our area, if you look at Christian counseling agencies, which we have a great number of them in our county, what you will find is the vast majority of people who are employed at these practices, A, the practices do not typically take insurance, and B, your clinicians are not actually licensed. They don't take insurance, so they don't have to be licensed.

Evan: 19:08

It's an interesting distinction.

Melissa: 19:10

It is. So for example, I could have a degree in social work, I could have an MSW and go work at a Christian counseling agency.

Evan: 19:20

Oh, but you don't have to be licensed by the state board. Correct. You you can you still would want to have the credentials that say I've went through I've gone through school. I know what I'm talking about. I'm not, I'm not Evan sitting down at the table and saying, tell me about your feelings.

Melissa: 19:35

Well, and the reality is, yeah, do you learn some stuff in a master's program that might help in a therapy room? Sure. But it is truly our license that says it says we passed a test on it. So it means you're very good at answering multiple choice questions. And you know what is the value in that? Uh honestly, I'm not really sure on the test side of it, but from a licensing side, it really does hold licensed clinicians to a higher standard. And it says if you don't follow these ethical, which are mostly basic common sense ethical practices, then there's going to be some kind of disciplinary something that happens. Where people over in the faith, the the Christian counseling side, if they are not upheld to that licensing standard, there is nobody to report them to, to report misconduct. There, there's no way to come back and say, you hurt me in this. And they can absolutely impose their own will and values onto the people they see. And that is something that people need to know walking in there.

Evan: 20:56

Well, and I think we we should also mention that this is a when we talk about Christian counseling, we shouldn't just put it in the perspective of Christians, right? There are many faiths out there. Islam is one, for example, that that harshly judges homosexuality and sexual deviance in a lot of ways. And there are specific Islamic centers that have their own Islamic faith-based counselors as well, typically tied to your mosques or tied to your Islamic centers, that would also be affected by this as well, right? This is this is any kind of faith-based test that goes against the general idea that the individual is allowed to make their own decision on their sexuality.

Melissa: 21:40

Here's the problem, though, right? Is we can't confuse the term Christian counselor and faith-based practitioner.

Evan: 21:48

Right.

Melissa: 21:48

They are two separate things. And a Christian counselor uh isn't even a real thing because you're either there's a huge difference. This actually just came up in our practice recently. There is a huge difference between spiritual guidance and mental health counseling.

Evan: 22:12

Right. I would consider a Christian counselor to be an elder at church, it could be, you know, a church leader of some kind, it could be a pastor, it could be a youth pastor. There's lots of ways to talk about what Christian counselor quote unquote refers to. Yes, yeah, lay. But from the perspective of what's in the book.

Melissa: 22:34

Correct. So, you know, and I don't mean the DSM 5. No, personally, right? I am a faith-based practitioner, which means as a clinical social worker, I deeply, deeply value and respect that you have your own beliefs and morals that guide you. And mine are irrelevant in the practice that I do unless you specifically want to know that I come from the same foundational worldview as you do, in which case we come at things from the same direction. But if you want to explore your faith and your relationship with God, I'm gonna say, I think you need to find a pastor or spiritual mentor to go talk to. I'm here to deal with the mental health side, the anxiety, the depression. We actually can't bill insurance if it's not related to a DSM disorder.

Evan: 23:43

Oh wow. Yep. So, you know, if a if a Christian teen asks to align with their beliefs, should that request be then off limits for a licensed counselor? Or if a teen, another teen wants affirmation, should that be legally protected speech, but the opposite viewpoint banned?

Melissa: 24:00

Break that down for me.

Evan: 24:01

So if you have if you have two patients, two, you know, folks who come in, and one of them asks to align with their beliefs. So they come into you and they say, Look, I'm a Christian, I am homosexual, I'm attracted to men, and you know, I know that this doesn't line up with my beliefs. Can you help me understand and align my feelings and the the you know uh internals of what I'm feeling with my faith? Versus you have another teenager that comes in and says, I was born a girl, but I I I feel like I'm a boy. I want you to, you know, affirm that and and accept me for who I believe that I am.

Melissa: 24:48

I would say, Why are you here then? To the second one. Because like, what are we working on?

Evan: 24:55

Well, maybe they feel like people around them aren't affirming them, and that is you know, uh harming their mental health, and they they want somebody to tell them that it's okay to be who they want to be versus maybe who they already are.

Melissa: 25:10

So absolutely that's a clinical concept of how do I separate myself and what I believe from what others think I should be. We can absolutely sit down and talk through that and figure out how to help you stand in your own identity instead of wavering to the identity that others believe you should be. Absolutely. And for the first person, we navigate that by okay, let's explore that together. Let's explore those feelings and where they come from. And with anybody who comes in, if you're just going to therapy for somebody to tell you what you want to hear, that's awful. I don't know who else to put it. Because any clinician who just sits there and is a yes person and agrees with everything you say, and that's awful therapy. Why in the world would you go to therapy unless you have a serious personality disorder? Just to hear your awesome, great job.

Evan: 26:15

Yeah.

Melissa: 26:15

I mean, the average person wants to engage in therapy because there's something they want to change. They can't figure it out, and they need help, somebody to maybe ask the right questions or take them on a path of many paths of exploring. What I've found is there's so many providers. It's just talk therapy.

Evan: 26:41

Yeah.

Melissa: 26:41

Let's just talk.

Evan: 26:42

Right.

Melissa: 26:43

And they don't know or just aren't proficient enough. I don't know what it is. They don't dig to the roots.

Evan: 26:52

We've talked about that many times already, and and many times more. Root causes seem to be an abstract concept for a lot of people, and they don't really understand it. And in in the case of Kaley Chiles, who's she's a practicing Christian, she contends that although she doesn't try to convert her client, she does try to help them with objectives that may include seeking to reduce or eliminate unwanted sexual attractions or becoming more comfortable with their bodies. This sounds to me in the way that it's framed, like when she sits down with her patient, with her client, she sits down with them and she says, What do you want to achieve? What are your goals? What are your objectives that you want to get out of this? Sure. And they may say to her, Look, I don't, I know my value set says X, and I'm way over here doing Z, and I don't want that. I want to get back to my value set. How do I do that? This sounds like a law that would bar her from doing that.

Melissa: 27:50

Well, and let's be real. No client is gonna seek her out if they want to be affirmed in things that they know violate the Christian faith.

Evan: 27:59

Right. Right. And right now there's legal precedent and principle around this from both directions. So there's laws that have compelled certain speech to be available by crisis pregnancy centers.

Melissa: 28:13

Okay.

Evan: 28:14

There's also laws that have upheld the conversion therapy ban.

Melissa: 28:19

Right.

Evan: 28:20

So this there it's sort of a split right now in the federal judiciary, which is why this is now at the Supreme Court. And this could potentially resolve that split. And I think where it becomes extremely important, especially in your field, is this can redefine how far states can go in telling doctors, therapists, and even teachers what they can and can't say.

Melissa: 28:43

Right. Well, and I think that's the interesting piece of this, right? Is what can government control or regulate? Well, government can control and regulate the people that it licenses as clinicians, but the government can't regulate religion.

Evan: 28:57

And it can't regulate speech. Just did an equalizer episode on this the other day, and and how, you know, how far the government does try to push into that realm for various reasons, some of them quite good. Things like hate speech and all of that is is extremely important to consider when we talk about speech and what's good and what's bad. But, you know, government, thanks to the First Amendment, really doesn't have the right to police or limit speech. The the policing around speech is done by us as individuals, as companies, as organizations. We can choose to make people pariahs, we can choose to make people who have aberrant speech not part of our organization, but but the government can't enforce those regulations on them, at least at the federal level.

Melissa: 29:47

You know, I I find an interesting correlation here, right? Because super controversial again, right? The desire to restrict access to guns. And we recognize that we can put all the laws we want in place, and it is not going to prevent the criminals from obtaining weapons.

Evan: 30:10

Bad actor is gonna act bad.

Melissa: 30:12

Correct. Well, it's no different in therapy.

Evan: 30:15

Yeah.

Melissa: 30:15

A bad actor is gonna act bad, and they might give up their license and practice without one and not take insurance. And that's that's one of those big parts here, I think, is that while its intention is to stop harm to children, those of us with the license are typically not the ones doing it. Right. Because we have this code of ethics that says first do no harm. It's the people we're now being regulated here on stuff that's common sense, and the people that aren't operating under those same standards are the ones that are still able to do it.

Evan: 30:57

Absolutely. I want to kind of bring all this together. Couple of few questions for you. What counts as harmful speech in therapy?

Melissa: 31:06

Oh my goodness. Can we define harmful speech?

Evan: 31:09

Uh I'm looking to you as the therapist with the ethics and the moral code to tell me what you would consider. Consider harmful speech to be therapy.

Melissa: 31:19

Because I don't think there's anything in our code of ethics that says no harmful speech, right?

Evan: 31:24

Well, I I mean I would imagine that things that would come into this realm would be things I wouldn't even imagine saying. Things you would never say. Go kill yourself.

Melissa: 31:33

Oh my gosh. That would be a harm. Yes, that would be harmful.

Evan: 31:36

Right.

Melissa: 31:36

Yes.

Evan: 31:37

You know, you're you're not worthy of love. That's those kinds of negative.

Melissa: 31:43

So counterproductive.

Evan: 31:44

Sure. It's a it's the antithesis, I think, of what your yes, therapy for sure, but also so let well well, let's bring this, let's bring this back to something some somebody that you people may know. Let's talk about Dr. Laura. Yes. Dr. Laura is extremely candid. She practices radical transparency. She doesn't put up with a bunch. She's, by the way, if you don't know, she's on Sirius XM and a bunch of radio stations. She's an on-air, you know, therapist. I don't know if she's a doc. She's a doctor, obviously. So she's probably a psychologist. Uh, but she doesn't suffer fools. She doesn't take any shit. And she tells people exactly how she sees it. Whether she's right or wrong is always up for debate. But she doesn't back down and she doesn't suffer fools. If you're a long winder like me that goes on and on and on and she cuts you off and she's like, here, I have very simple questions. And if you can't give me these answers, our conversation is over. Right. But I have been in the car with you when we've listened to some episodes, and I can hear you, you know, on the other side of the center console with your thoughts about what she's saying. Does she cross into harmful speech at times, or is she just tough loving?

Melissa: 33:03

You know, she has her own views on things, and she definitely is not always the most politically correct and challenges people's thoughts on different things. And the one you're talking about, I remember she told a I will say survivor of sexual abuse that survivor is not a good term, that you never survived if you're still struggling with aspects of it. And I wholeheartedly disagreed with her on that. As a survivor, I I survived that abuse. And yes, do I still struggle with aspects of it? Absolutely, but I'm not still there. And if we say I'm a victim, then that insinuates that that I'm stuck, that I'm playing the victim, that I have a victim mentality that people owe me or I can get away with things. Whereas when I say that I'm a survivor, what I mean is I literally survived what was imposed on me. And now I work on thriving. So I wholeheartedly disagreed with her.

Evan: 34:24

Yeah.

Melissa: 34:25

And that didn't make her speech harmful.

Evan: 34:27

Okay. So radical candor and maybe even disagreement with a with with a client that may say, This is, you know, how I feel about this situation. For you as a clinician, can you can you not affirm that feeling and say, well, well, listen, have you looked at it from their perspective?

Melissa: 34:46

Let's talk about abortion for a second. Let's talk about the client who's 17 that comes in and is pregnant.

Evan: 34:52

Yeah.

Melissa: 34:53

And it doesn't matter what my beliefs are. I'm gonna talk to her about having the baby and keeping the baby. I'm gonna talk to her about adoption, and I'm gonna talk to her about abortion because those are her options. It does not matter how I personally feel about it.

Evan: 35:12

Sure.

Melissa: 35:13

And so one person could come in from a faith base and say, that's harmful. You can't talk to her about abortion being an option. Well, is it harmful or is she exploring her options? And I don't know where she's gonna land. And hopefully I'm still in the picture to help her deal with any potential fallout because all of them have fallout.

Evan: 35:38

Sure.

Melissa: 35:38

Just in different ways. Now, if she were to go to a faith-based place, they would talk to her about having the child and keeping the child, having the child and giving that child up for adoption.

Evan: 35:48

Yeah.

Melissa: 35:49

And so you see a big difference there. And if somebody would condemn her and tell her she's an awful human for making whatever choice she makes, that that would be harmful language.

Evan: 36:03

Well, and you bring up a good point there as well, because it it it ties into the second question that I had for you about should professionals have less free speech protection? So you have two different practices. You have a broader general practice versus a faith-based practice. Should should we be regulating the faith-based practice in a different way by saying you can't engage in some of these discussions or you must talk about these extra options?

Melissa: 36:32

Well, I have a question. So if you're a secular clinician and somebody comes to you and says, I come from a base a faith base, I use pornography and sleep with prostitutes, and I need help to figure this out. And that therapist says, you know what? Here's a book. It's called Ethical Porn for Dicks. It's on Amazon. You can look it up.

Evan: 36:55

Okay.

Melissa: 36:56

I think you should read this book. Is that wrong?

Evan: 37:00

I I don't know the answer.

Melissa: 37:03

I do. I think I think it is, and and this I've actually I know that this has happened in our area because just like you have faith-based practices, you have super, super not faith-based secular practices.

Evan: 37:20

Yeah.

Melissa: 37:21

And really our job as clinicians is to understand and respect where our individual client is coming from. So if I have a client that comes in and says, I come from a faith-based, I don't believe in pornography, I'm doing this and I don't want to be, I am not gonna hand them a book that talks about how to view porn in an ethical way. Sure. This is ludicrous to me. Sure.

Evan: 37:47

Yeah. So, and that's I guess where where I'm coming from is should we allow, you know, faith-based practices to do their thing their way? Yes. And secular practices to do things their way. And if you as the client regulate them as a distinction.

Melissa: 38:04

If you as the client don't like it, find a therapist that you do like that does align with your values. And if if faith is particularly important to me, I'm going to find a practice and say, I want somebody that comes from a faith base.

Evan: 38:20

It's like having a baker that won't bake your cake for you. Go find the one down the road that will.

Melissa: 38:25

I'm gonna demand that you come from a faith base because that's what I want you to do. No, it doesn't work for the client to put that on the clinician. And it sure as heck doesn't work for the clinician to put it on the client. So, no matter how you look at it, it's one of those things where everybody just has to find the person that they click with.

Evan: 38:48

So, last question for you. Can the state separate medical harm from moral disagreement? So when the state passes this law, it's the legislators all saying, as a as a collective body, we believe that you know conversion therapy is harmful, you know, and and the the medical professional bodies believe that it's harmful. There's still some debate on that, certainly depending on how you define conversion therapy, right? If you could define conversion therapy as, you know, a forced conversion from your current thinking to something else that that you know more aligns with where the converter is coming from or the family wants you to go, versus something that's more innocuous, like what we've been talking about in this case, where you have a faith-based clinician that is offering a faith-based perspective to someone asking for a faith-based perspective? I struggle with that definition of conversion therapy lining up.

Melissa: 39:47

Can I ask you a question? Sure. Why do we think it's harmful to individuals under the age of 18?

Evan: 39:54

Uh, it's a great question. I don't know the answer to that. Why would it be any less harmful to someone over the age of 18?

Melissa: 40:02

So, what's different about a child versus an adult?

Evan: 40:05

An adult has more autonomy, I suppose, for individual choice. I the the age guess me, because there are physiological differences between someone under the age of, say, 25 when brain formation begins to end.

Melissa: 40:19

Oh, look at what you just touched on. Brain formation. That's the difference, right? So if we're saying we can't impact this child in this way, right? Because the child has rights and the child, you know, doesn't have enough brain development to be able to navigate this, and we're gonna do harm to their development, right? Then wouldn't we also be doing harm to them and their development by utilizing medical and medical interventions that affirm maybe who they think they are and stop development. And so I see this going both ways. So if we're gonna step in and say, hey, look, conversion therapy bad, don't impose on the will of the child because you know the child has autonomy. And by the way, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any of this, right? I'm just saying it should go both ways. Sure. Then we should put a line in the sand that says zero. There's a difference too in how we look at like gender-affirming care and what that actually is. But we should say, then, you know what, we're not doing any medical interventions because if their brain isn't developed enough, then their brain isn't developed enough.

Evan: 41:40

But there's a specific carve out in the law that allows for you to do the gender-affirming portion and to assist in medical transitions of people under the age of 18. And again, I go back to this issue with the age, right? We keep acting like 18-year-olds are adults.

Melissa: 41:57

But now you can't even buy cigarettes until you're 21. Right. You can't and haven't ever been able to buy, well, not ever, but alcohol at the age is 21. I don't know what age can you buy a gun.

Evan: 42:08

I don't know, but I know I gotta carry my 23-year-old, 24-year-old on my insurance for another year. Right. Right. Because he's on my insurance till 25. And I know that there have been numerous studies that show that the majority of brain development, or at least the finalization of the majority of the brain development, happens between the ages of 18 and 25.

Melissa: 42:30

Which again, I wholeheartedly disagree with. I think our brains are always developing until we hit a peak somewhere around the age of 60, and then they start to regress.

Evan: 42:41

But and I and I I think that probably you'll find that the the the science community generally agrees with that concept that there's further development beyond that, but they talk about the bulk of the you know formulation of brain development happening, you know, in those adolescent years.

Melissa: 42:59

Of probably prefrontal cortex development.

Evan: 43:03

Most likely. Sure. So I think if we're going to talk about these laws from that perspective, we ought to do it. If you're going to tell me that you're doing this because it's scientifically, this is what we believe.

Melissa: 43:13

Let's actually follow science.

Evan: 43:15

Let's follow the science and go all the way to 25.

Melissa: 43:18

Yeah.

Evan: 43:18

And but that doesn't suit. No, it doesn't suit. It doesn't, it's not it because everybody's mind is wrapped around this concept of I'm an I'm an adult at 18, right? Whether or not that's reality.

Melissa: 43:30

And how many 18-year-olds do we really know that are actually adulting?

Evan: 43:35

You know, it all right. Let me touch on this real quick. Side note, tangent for those of you that don't want to hear this, that's okay. But let's talk about the difference real quick between our society and the Amish society. And I only want to do it from the perspective of kids, right? They send their five-year-olds out with a lunchbox to school to walk down the road, right? Miles to school.

Melissa: 44:00

I mean, they're married by 18.

Evan: 44:01

Well, maybe not married anymore, but they have they have a completely different perspective on age. And if you go back in our history and you look at American history back into the 1800s, the 1700s, kids 12 years old routinely carried, by the way, guns, shotguns, especially, and then rifles them and knew how to use them and went out and hunted for the family out west during the exchange.

Melissa: 44:28

I mean, by 18, you were married and probably had already popped out at least one kid, if not two.

Evan: 44:33

Probably had a farmhouse somewhere with several acres of land. So our society, for better or for worse, has gone from a place where you know 12 to 18-year-olds were adolescents in terms of I'm moving from child to adult, right? Absolutely. Now we're lucky if we can get our 18-year-olds out of like the 12-year-old phase.

Melissa: 44:56

You're lucky if they're adulting by 30 these days. Yeah, yeah.

Evan: 45:01

Failure to launch is a real thing that we need to talk about in another episode because we don't have any more time today. Right. But just wanted to put that in everybody's mind that this whole age concept to me is just it's not rooted in anything other than maybe tradition.

Melissa: 45:17

Well, and ironically enough, when we look at the elderly population, we don't distinguish things by age. There's not an age where you lose your driver's license. There's not an age where you're determined to not be sound of mind to make medical decisions.

Evan: 45:33

Yeah.

Melissa: 45:34

It's based on every unique situation. So why is it that for children we designate a specific age? And yet for the elderly, we don't.

Evan: 45:48

It's a great question. I think we need to come back to that on another episode. Agreed. Listen, drop us a comment. Should licensed therapists be free to counsel minors consistent with their faith, or does the state have a duty to step in? I think that's a great question to ask. I think it would be great if you guys, you folks, would respond to us and let us know. You can find us on social media at the unmentionables.

Melissa: 46:12

And we'd love your controversial comments.

Evan: 46:14

Yes.

Melissa: 46:14

We'd love to talk about them.

Evan: 46:16

We want to talk about them.

Melissa: 46:17

We maybe want to talk with you.

Evan: 46:19

Absolutely. Come be a guest.

Melissa: 46:21

All right.

Evan: 46:21

Take care.

Melissa: 46:22

Bye.