Evan: 1:28

Have you ever replayed a mistake in your head so many times that it starts to feel like it defines you? Maybe it was something you said, a failure at work, a relationship gone wrong — and instead of moving past it, you sink deeper and deeper into that pit of self-blame. That’s what we call a shame spiral. It’s not just feeling guilty about something you did; it’s feeling like who you are is broken or unworthy. And when you're in it, it can feel endless. On today's episode, Melissa and I are digging into the reality of shame spiraling, why it happens, how it takes hold of us, and most importantly, how we can stop it before it consumes us. And we're going to talk about where shame comes from, the role culture and relationships play, and what it takes to break free from that cycle. If you've ever felt trapped in your own head, this one's for you. Before we go too far, let's start at the beginning. When we say shame spiral, what exactly are we talking about?

Melissa: 1:55

Well, it looks different for different people. I think about, you know, every one of us has done it, right? I left an abusive marriage. And there was definitely a shame spiral after that. A spiral of, I'm the problem. And why am I not good enough for other people? Why am I not good enough to be treated better? I'm never going to be treated well. So I may as well just sit alone for the rest of my life. I think about shame spirals that people go through after some kind of, you know, crime is committed against them. Whether it's an assault or a burglary of did I somehow cause this? Or thinking about the kids and they're called out on something and instantly they're angry and defensive and then blow up and sink into a pit of depression.

Evan: 2:57

How's that different from guilt or embarrassment? I mean, everybody gets convicted at times and they feel guilty. They feel embarrassed. They might lash out in a similar way. How is shame spiraling different?

Melissa: 3:08

Sure. If we feel guilty about something, first of all, guilt is I know that I did something wrong. And I can see that. And I have this feeling inside of me that I just didn't didn't do what I was supposed to. Shame, on the other hand, is I have this expectation and my performance didn't meet my expectation. So it's not necessarily that I did something morally wrong. It's that my reality versus expectation just didn't match. So when we talk about this, it's the the guilt side, it's almost more of the fact side. It's provable. I took something from somebody, and now I feel guilty because I know I took something and they're gonna find out. And I feel guilty about it because I did wrong. Shame is more perception. Shame is I perceive that something is my fault when it might not be, or I perceive that somebody is blaming me for something, but maybe they aren't, or maybe they are and it's unjustified.

Evan: 4:21

And what's a shame spiral actually feel like? So we talked about feelings. What does a shame spiral feel like? Feels like to me, maybe guilt or embarrassment is a short-term thing. What's a shame spiral feel like?

Melissa: 4:33

Well, I think with guilt, it's easier to resolve it. You know, I can go and say, I'm sorry for what I did, I can make it right. Shame is a very internal process of those demons that you fight within yourself. And really, guilt, that's that's the cusp of it. Guilt is an external, shame is an internal process. So when I'm shame spiraling, I'm really fighting with myself. And I'm fighting my own thoughts and my own feelings of inadequacy, whether they're accurate or not.

Evan: 5:10

Why why is it so much more consuming than other emotions?

Melissa: 5:14

Because it has to do with self. I have to forgive myself instead of relying. You and I, outside of here, have talked a lot about external validation and why some people need to have external validation of thoughts, ideas, identity, whatever it is. And why is that external validation so important? Well, because it's not your own head. Whereas with a shame spiral, I'm fighting the voices in my own head and need my own head to tell me that it's okay.

Evan: 5:47

For those people that need that external validation, does that typically come from someone who has such a low self-esteem or a low opinion of oneself internally that they seek the external validation to replace their own internal negativity about themselves?

Melissa: 6:04

Well, yes. And I think it's more important to look at where that internal negativity come from. And so a lot of it oftentimes comes from trauma. It can also come from subtle messages that we were given throughout our life. Those messages that your voice doesn't matter, your ideas don't matter, you're not as good as other people around you. Even the parent who constantly steps in when their kid has a little bit of a hard time, they jump in, they're like, I can do this for you. Breeds a sense of incompetence in kids. And now, why am I gonna bother trying if I'm just not gonna be able to do it? Somebody else can do it better. And so then when we fail, that self-talk can come out of, well, this is just who I am. It's very internalized into who I am as a human, not just an act. Guilt is an act that I did wrong. Shame is who I am.

Evan: 7:03

You've transitioned perfectly into a uh the next topic that I was gonna ask about, which is the roots of shame. Seems like it's it's rooted in your childhood and trauma. Experience. In in you know, cultural expectations, you know, expectations that you've received from your, you know, religious background or family dynamics. Are those really the common sort of roots of where shame comes from?

Melissa: 7:31

They sure are. I mean, what are some things that you've felt shame over?

Evan: 7:34

Sometimes the way the way I've prepared the kids for life at times. So that's the way I've the way I've responded or acted in certain situations.

Melissa: 7:42

So where did you learn those things?

Evan: 7:44

Yeah, some of it is is my own childhood, some of it is, you know, cultural expectations and looking around and seeing how other parents are parenting their kids or how other kids are, you know, supposedly being prepared for the world. I guess in some ways, you have to give yourself a little grace because not everything is what it appears to be. Very true.

Melissa: 8:04

Well, we only know what we know, right? Right. Know better, do better. So when we don't realize how things like our words. Words have a lot of value. Remember the old phrase, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I mean, how much further from the truth can we actually get?

Evan: 8:25

So so true. I just did a an equalizer series episode on speech and the power of it. And you know, I went back to the sort of roots of speech, and I really tied speech back to creation. So if you read the Bible, if you're a Bible believer, and if you're not, check out your check out your favorite text, you know, religious text. It's in all of them, really. But the beginnings of the world, especially in biblical Christianity, God said, Let there be light. And if you read through Genesis, the the opening chapter of Genesis, you'll see that everything that was created on the earth and around the earth, the heavens and everything around it, everything was created through speech. God said, Do this. God said this. God said, Let there be man, and he created man.

Melissa: 9:12

He speaks everything into creation.

Evan: 9:15

And we know from the Bible that we are created in God's image. And so if we extrapolate that out, we have many, if not all, of the same powers that God has. So our speech can breathe life. And in fact, the Bible tells us that our speech is both life and death. And we know that the importance of speech, even from Jesus, is critical. We know from the Bible that Jesus said every idle and careless word that we speak will be judged in heaven. And so speech is a huge, huge component of every portion of our life. It can unite, it can divide, it can break down walls, and it can build them up.

Melissa: 9:54

Have you ever heard about, you know, whatever's in your heart is what comes out your mouth? Have you heard it?

Evan: 10:00

Yeah, I've heard it. I don't know that I completely agree with it, but I've heard it. I think that people can say things sometimes that don't they don't necessarily mean or believe or at least have conviction behind. They just say things. It comes from somewhere. It certainly does. And I think, I think, again, when we go back to speech, you know, God's not the only one that used speech. Right. The serpent tempted Eve with the apple and with speech. And so that's just more proof that it can build up, it can tear down, it can be used for good, it can be used for better. But it all comes from inside for good purposes.

Melissa: 10:37

It it you're right. And it it all comes from that place inside of feelings.

Evan: 10:42

Sure.

Melissa: 10:42

And if I'm feeling frustrated, I might snap and say something that I don't really mean, but I still said it. It's still words that came from my heart, and I didn't filter it, and out it came. Whether it's valid in the moment, because if we really look at our feelings, feelings are a snapshot of a moment as part of an experience in time. And, you know, I could feel something or feel away about something right now, and in five minutes, I could feel completely differently about it. I don't know how men work, it's definitely how women work. So I think about that. And really, we don't consider how those words impact the other humans around us. And when a kid is told this is this is a good example. You are bad versus the choice you made was bad. Or, you know, you are incompetent versus your performance was subpar. When we attach the person to that trait, it internalizes and it it soaks deep into our soul and it becomes part of who we are. So for years and years and years, I was given messages that I wasn't good enough, that nobody else would want me, that nobody would want to, you know, help raise my children, that I was never gonna find somebody better because this person knew me inside and out. Well, those messages all sunk in. And those were all things that I struggled with shame over. Feeling inadequate, feeling unworthy, feeling just like I, who I was, would never be enough for anybody. And those were messages that my kids received. So those are all areas that we have to work through. Otherwise, we will forever struggle with shame.

Evan: 12:47

Are some people more prone to shame spirals than others?

Melissa: 12:50

That I'm sure that that has a lot to do with how we rebound, with how resilient we are. And I mean, definitely resiliency. I have seen people go through more than I think I could ever bear. And yet they're on the other side. It didn't break them. But resiliency, again, is very internal. And our ability to manage distress is something that we're taught. Are we sitting in things? Are we sitting in those feelings knowing that we have somebody supporting us? Do we feel emotionally safe in our relationships? Do we feel like we can go to somebody and say, hey, I'm struggling with this? And that they're gonna say, How can I help? Is there anything that I can do? Is there is there anything I'm doing that's not helping? And I think most people don't have relationships like that. Eve with with parents, with spouses, with friends, where they can just say, This is where I'm at, and and realize they won't be judged for it.

Evan: 13:56

What kind of situations tend to trigger these shame spirals in in everyday life? Is it sort of r randomized based on the individual and their distress tolerance? Is it is there something that's more likely to cause it than others and in the majority of people? What can lead to this on a on a you know not day-to-day basis, but on an everyday sort of you know occurrence?

Melissa: 14:20

Way to ask a hard one. Because it really is individualized. You know, what may have caused me to sink into shame years ago doesn't impact me anymore because of the work that I've done on myself internally. And we look at younger people, and what might cause a shame spiral for one might be a bully at school that says you're ugly, and then they they spin and spiral. And what that really means is they stop functioning, they sink into a world where they don't have to deal with the parts of themselves that they don't like. Instead of grabbing hold, and this is where we as parents really need to help our kids to recognize that this is what's happening and to bring it into the light and talk about it. Because just as much as somebody's words have harmed that child or that partner or friend or whoever, words heal it. And so often I sit in a therapy room and tell people what you tell yourself is what becomes true. So if you continue to tell yourself, wow, I'm awful, I don't deserve good things. The world is miserable and negative. And the more you tell yourself those things, the truer it becomes. And on the opposite of that is, even if you don't feel it in the beginning, hey, I do deserve to be loved. I do deserve to have partnership, I do deserve to be treated with respect or kindness or understanding. Then that is what you breed outside of that therapy room.

Evan: 16:10

Can you walk us through what's happening in the brain and the body when someone gets stuck in a shame spiral? Sure. Nervous system.

Melissa: 16:19

Everything is about our nervous system. And when we recognize that the nervous system's job is to keep us safe, that's it. So when we start, hopefully we start out in this ventral space that is safety. It's the ability to play, it's social engagement, it's eye contact and connection and generally feeling safe, but having this level of neuro awareness. What else is in my vicinity that might be a threat? And then as this threat comes in, that's when parts of our fight or flight system or the sympathetic nervous system start to come online. We start to move, we start to shift, we start to adapt. And then at some point, the threat becomes so great, so so imminent here that our fact brain, our sense of safety goes offline. And now we're in pure fight or flight mode. Now I'm full of energy. I'm either running or I'm attacking, or maybe I'm just really excited because something's happening. In the case of shame, this is when somebody is defensive. They're yelling at you, they're trying to convince you that what they did wasn't wrong or it wasn't their fault or it's somebody else's. They're trying to take whatever's coming at them and displace it. And the moment they realize they can't do that, that's when fight or flight goes offline. And now we have sunken into the pit of the dorsal nervous system. And that's a turtle shell. I don't like the reality outside. And really, what this is, it's the most primitive part of our nervous system, the part that plays dead, the part that goes underwater and slows down its breathing and slows down just oxygen consumption and how our body's processing something. And we disappear. So we just can't see what's out there. And then we sit there until we feel like the world is safe again. The problem is if we want to get back up to safety, we still have to come back up and through the fight or flight and the feelings and the discomfort. And that's where people get stuck.

Evan: 18:41

Is that why shame tends to feed on itself and it gets worse instead of fading because you kind of get stuck at the bottom and not wanting to, or being able maybe to transition back through that fight or flight?

Melissa: 18:53

Absolutely. And even deeper into that, there's a part of us that can get stuck down there. So if I'm five years old when I feel shame because, you know, I didn't do something that I was supposed to do, if I don't resolve that and go back up through it in a successful way, that little five-year-old part of me gets stuck down there. So I physically move forward. I'm physically carrying on with my life. But this emotional five-year-old that got hurt is captured down there holding this wound. And then every time something triggers that experience, here's my five-year-old part coming right back out again. And that's where we have to do the work of finding those root causes of things and recognizing what part of me is this that's reacting in this way? And then we have to revisit it and disconnect and finish resolving what caused the shame on an emotional level in order to move forward. This is why we see so many emotionally stunted adults walking around.

Evan: 20:04

Yeah. Is there such a thing as shame about shame or being embarrassed about even feeling shame? Do you do you see that in in clients?

Melissa: 20:12

Or sure. I mean, we all get embarrassed when we recognize that something that we're doing is unhealthy. And human nature is to try to hide it. This is why this is why when you see your four-year-old with chocolate all over their face after you told them they couldn't have the chocolate chip cookie before dinner, and then they snuck into the cookie jar and took it and ate it and thought that they were getting one over on you. That's why you say, Hey, did you have the cookie? They lie to you because they know that they did something wrong. They don't want you to find out, they don't want to be in trouble. They're embarrassed that now you're like, hey, but there's chocolate on your face. And that's when shame can sink in. If we go at that child over their actions instead of looking at the moral construct of it.

Evan: 21:08

And is that kind of the spiral effect where you go through all of the emotional aspects, you go through all the ways that the brain and the body react to these kinds of situations, and then you know, you start to feel bad about ever having felt bad, and then it just cycles back to I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible because I feel bad about feeling bad.

Melissa: 21:32

It certainly can. And, you know, on the positive side of that, it does require that someone has some type of moral compass because your people that have no moral compass won't even feel bad about it.

Evan: 21:45

Yeah, your narcissists or what's the other one? BPD.

Melissa: 21:48

Borderlines.

Evan: 21:49

Borderlines. They don't realize those negative things. They don't see it as negatives because they don't care. Is that what it comes down to?

Melissa: 21:58

Sort of, but also not. So they can feel shame over feeling like they disappointed themselves, but don't recognize harm to others. So they won't feel shame because they screamed and yelled at you. They will feel shame if they go out and get drunk because of all of the emotions. They might feel shame for doing something that they didn't want to do, but it's not something that they did to you. Does that make sense?

Evan: 22:33

Kind of. I I mean, I would say not really, because I'm neither a therapist who's been schooled in this, or a narcissist or, you know, sociopath or whatever. Right. I don't I don't fully understand how one can have no remorse for how another person feels. I can conceptually understand it. I mean, we've we've seen enough of those things in the world, and there's been, you know, horrible people throughout history, Hitlers and Mao and Stalins of the world who have done terrible things and you know killed millions of people and had no remorse over it, or at least it doesn't appear that there was ever any remorse over it. So you know those kinds of things exist. You know, either serial killers that have killed and just you know almost indiscriminately, or maybe they've they've had their predilections as to who they're trying to kill, but they're still able to take lives and not appear to feel remorse for it.

Melissa: 23:26

Even abusers chronically repeat the same behaviors, and it will always be the other person's fault.

Evan: 23:33

Right.

Melissa: 23:33

It's never theirs.

Evan: 23:34

Right. So you know those things exist, but for me to be able to empathize enough to put myself in that position, I no, you can't. I can't. I don't really understand it. Yeah. But I I understand the concept.

Melissa: 23:47

Well, and again, it's it is this broader concept that when trauma happens, if I put up walls to keep me safe and tuck into my turtle shell where I'm the good one in the center and the world is bad and it's out to get me, then of course everything is everybody else's fault. And I'm just doing what I need to keep myself safe. Everybody else is the problem. But if I have trauma and somehow keep myself open to everybody else in the world matters, and if I can just keep the peace out there, then I'll be safe. That makes me a small part of something that's spinning around a greater object or entity or you know, god in that, in that sense.

Evan: 24:40

Give us the playbook here. What are the first steps to hit pause on a shame spiral?

Melissa: 24:44

So I think the hard part about a shame spiral is the person spiraling. And no matter what somebody else does, that person is gonna sit in it until they are ready to come out. And that can be really hard for the people around them to recognize that this is going on and also to recognize that there's nothing they can do. So, in order for somebody to come out of it, they really do have to recognize that they're in it.

Evan: 25:14

What's the first step when you finally do recognize that you're in a shame spiral?

Melissa: 25:19

Well, it's that that dorsal turtle shell. And I think that when people come out of it, they want to pretend like it didn't happen. They want to pretend that everything is normal and let's just move on. And that tends to be one of the biggest problems that they'll have to face. Because while they have been in their little turtle shell, they've been causing destruction around them. And often that's destruction to relationships. Because when you're spiraling, you're either externalizing and yelling at people and slamming doors and telling everybody to go away, or sometimes you're doing both, but you're internalizing and disappearing and pushing people away and having to deal with everything on your own. And so while you're now ready to come out of the turtle shell, these people don't realize they may have gotten over something, but the other people around them maybe haven't.

Evan: 26:22

Yeah. So is the first step making amends? Is it, you know, continuing to show your self, self-compassion? What's the what's the play here?

Melissa: 26:32

Well, I mean, I think acknowledging it is probably the first step. Acknowledging it to yourself and acknowledging it to the people around you who may be thinking you're mad at them. They did something wrong. They're left feeling unloved, not valued. Sometimes they're just feeling lost and insecure in relationship with you, and maybe even afraid of getting backlash or hurt. So being able to go to people and say, you know, I'm I'm really sorry that I did this. I recognize why I did it. And it's something that I'm gonna try to work on. And then actually taking the time to become more aware of your own signs and symptoms, and maybe being vulnerable enough to ask the people around you to look for those signs and try to point them out next time.

Evan: 27:27

Sounds a little bit like a 12-step program here.

Melissa: 27:32

Yeah. Do you do you know more of the steps?

Evan: 27:36

Well, let's see. The first one is admitting we have a problem.

Melissa: 27:39

Right.

Evan: 27:40

Right?

Melissa: 27:40

Mm-hmm.

Evan: 27:41

And that you're powerless over it. You're powerless over it. What else?

Melissa: 27:45

I know making amends is definitely in there.

Evan: 27:47

Making amends is on there for sure. Yep. Taking a moral inventory of ourselves.

Melissa: 27:54

That would be a good one.

Evan: 27:55

Usually your Alcoholics Anonymous and stuff like that have a lot of faith-based things in it. So there's steps in there that I don't think will apply to every person listening to this. But if you are faith-based, I think probably recognizing that there's a a higher power and that you have value in that higher power's eyes, or you wouldn't have been created in the first place.

Melissa: 28:16

Right.

Evan: 28:16

Probably plays a role here. But all of that being said, how do things like, you know, you've talked about relationships. How does safe relationships and vulnerability help pull someone out? Or does it? Does it help pull someone out? Can can I mean obviously there's people that can just take advantage of those kinds of situations and, you know, never really change, but just continuously spiral and then come out of it and say, well, it's okay because we have such a safe relationship.

Melissa: 28:44

Right. And and really what's interesting about this is you've got the spiraler and then you've got the other person. And the spiraler is really only looking at their own pain. They're looking at what they are internally struggling with and are failing to recognize what they're then putting on everybody else around them. Yeah. And that really is the hard part because everybody else doesn't know what arbitrary criteria this person is using to go in and out of shame. They don't feel like it is emotionally safe anymore because they could say one thing and it causes somebody to go deeper in a spiral. Or they don't say something and they don't engage and it causes somebody to go deeper into a spiral. And you never know moment to moment whether you should say something or you shouldn't say something because it's never the same. So I think it's important to recognize that this isn't all just about the person spiraling. This is also about the other people around them who now have to figure out how to get over things too. And sometimes this causes resentment in relationships. It causes underlying fears. It causes a disconnect. And that's an emotional disconnect. And it takes more to reconnect than it does to disconnect.

Evan: 30:08

Yeah. Especially tough with, I imagine, children and people who are underdeveloped emotionally, right? It's probably a lot easier for someone like you who has done the work and who understands all of what is going on with this than it would be for what I would consider a lay person, right? A regular Joe, an average guy, average gal. It's probably a lot tougher for them to recognize what this is and to accept that the person on the other end of this is going through this thing, and so it's it's impacted them in a way that's that's disconnected them. You know, to to your point, right, we've all we always talk about you don't want to necessarily tell the child that the child is bad, right? But that action or that decision was wrong. And I I think in the same way, you know, if you're someone who is with someone who's going through those things, it might be easier for you to deal with it or somebody like you to deal with it than it is for somebody who I'm still human.

Melissa: 31:09

And that's the thing. Even us as therapists, we're we're therapists all day, but we're not a therapist to ourself, and we can't be a therapist to our kids. And really, what we're talking about at the end of the day is attachment. We're talking about kids who are struggling to form healthy attachments. Attachments to people. We're talking about emotional intelligence and emotional growth and well-being or emotional immaturity. And the more emotionally mature we are, that's really why we handle it better. Yeah. It's those parts of ourself that are stuck. And it's that five-year-old part that comes out and says, Why won't you connect with me? This isn't fair. And yet we're saying that to another part that's really stuck and little and doesn't really care about how other people feel about it.

Evan: 32:02

Yeah. So what kind of practical tools can someone who recognizes that they're in the shame spiral or maybe a pa we were talking earlier at lunch about how, you know, th this podcast is is, I think, targeted at people who have some level of empathy or understanding for the mental health conditions and the and and just mental health as a whole.

Melissa: 32:27

Self-reflection.

Evan: 32:28

Self-reflection, all of those things, right? But some people listening to this will be people who maybe are in the trade. Uh some people listening to this will be people who are maybe new, you know, or you know, even parents at home. I mean, we've we've talked in other episodes about the lack of focus and attention on mental health in our society, certainly amongst in you know, within our healthcare system. There's a there's I'd say lip service paid to it here and there.

Melissa: 32:55

Absolutely.

Evan: 32:56

Usually more on the pharmaceutical side of things.

Melissa: 33:00

Correct.

Evan: 33:00

How can we diagnose somebody so we can get them drugs? Absolutely. As opposed to a focus on can we really deal with the underlying causes of of these conditions that we're having and maybe break people out of some of these cycles.

Melissa: 33:14

We can't make people get help.

Evan: 33:16

Certainly, we can't make people get help. But I also think that there's a I the more I I research, the more I look, the more I watch and see what's going on. I think there's maybe not a sinister, but a a a more cynical approach to this, and that's sure. Um it's a lot cheaper to fix somebody's issues and deal with the root causes. Sure is uh over time than it is to to medicate and soothe those those symptoms. So, but my own skepticism and cynicism aside, what kind of practical tools can a parent with a child that's going through this on a, you know, maybe a regular basis, or you know, somebody who doesn't have access to mental health resources and but sees this in themselves? What what kind of practical tools can they use to try to break this cycle?

Melissa: 34:05

Sure. Talking about it, let's stop ignoring it. And when you see your child struggling or your child is acting out, let's take a step back and look at what's underneath it. Every behavior has a purpose. And so when we have a kid who's isolating or hiding, let's stop and engage in conversation. Let's pull them out of whatever it is that they're using to hide. If it's video games or their phone or social media, whatever it is, even it can be books. Let's pull them out into connection and talk about things that are going on and how we feel about it and show them that that can be safe, that we can connect in safe ways. A lot of the problem here is we've got parents that are not parenting. We have parents that recognize it's easier to let my kid be on their phone or on devices or video games or off at all the friends' houses, because then I don't have to deal with them.

Evan: 35:08

Yeah. And I and I think you have a much easier time at that with younger kids, right? Because by the time they get to high school, which I think, if we're honest, I think a lot of parents put those mental health blinders on until their kids start to really show the symptoms, and they don't really start to show the symptoms until about the time when they're going through all of their body changes.

Melissa: 35:27

Right.

Evan: 35:28

Right. And at that point, maybe that maybe that safe pathway feels broken down, right? Maybe the kid can't, doesn't want, won't discuss it with your with you as a parent. What about things like grounding, journaling, reframing?

Melissa: 35:45

Well, I think what you just said was super important because every kid doesn't want to talk to their mom or dad about it. But every kid deserves to have a safe adult that they can talk to. That you know if there's some major issue that you need to know about as the parent, they're gonna tell you. That might be an aunt or an uncle, or it might be their best friend's mom, it a coach or a teacher, whoever it is. But every kid should have somebody that they can go to that feels safe. And oftentimes that's not gonna be us as parents, and that's okay. And we talk about journaling. You know, one of the biggest reasons I hear kids don't journal?

Evan: 36:29

What's that?

Melissa: 36:29

Because somebody's gonna read it. Because somebody's gonna come into my room and find my journal and they're gonna read it, and then they're gonna know how I feel, and then I'm gonna get in trouble. And that's that's hard. Because how do we let kids have feelings and recognize and validate these feelings are real? As a parent, you may not agree with them, you may not even understand them. But that doesn't change the fact that they're real to your child and they come from a real place. So if that kid feels like somebody's always mad at them, that somebody doesn't love them, that you know they're the target of things, and then you're seeing behavioral issues come out of that kid, we can't just disregard the feelings.

Evan: 37:16

Do these tools actually work? If you sit down and you journal, does it actually work or is it something that therapists just tell you?

Melissa: 37:23

No, there's actual science behind it. There's science that talks about how we have two different parts of our brain, our feeling brain and a fact brain. And when we write things out, it takes it from the feeling state and it turns it into fact. And once it's down on paper and fact, that's when we can look at it from a neutral position and say, wow, I'm really glad I got that out. And that might be a little ridiculous. There might not be truth in that, or I can cross things out and mark things and take out things that are feeling, and then I'm left with just the facts. But we've got to get the feelings out. And if that's not to a trusted adult, if it's not to a best friend, if it's not down on paper, there are people who find that song that they connect with. And then they just play that song over and over and over again. And it helps them process through their own feelings easier. It's through running or sports or music, whatever it is. We just have to be able to divide out what are the facts here and what are my feelings that are a reflection of what's happening in this moment. Yeah.

Evan: 38:45

So how do things like cancel culture, social media, even politics news, how does that make shame spirals worse?

Melissa: 38:54

Sure. So, you know, I think in general, social media is just awful for our children. And the influences from people where all you're seeing is a fraction of their life. It's the fraction that they want you to see that's perfect or the showy part.

Evan: 39:14

It's we've talked about this before. It's a mask.

Melissa: 39:17

It's a mask. And yet, especially kids perceive it as reality. And it's really not attainable because nobody has a perfect life like that. And so we're setting ourselves up to be repeatedly disappointed by our own unmet and often unrealistic expectations. It's a comparison game. It's nothing more than keeping up with the Joneses.

Evan: 39:42

Yeah. Yeah. Do you think shame is more common today than it has been in the past because of social media and the access to things? And then, you know, also sort of dovetail on that. When you're in a in a shame spiral and you maybe go on social media and the wrong thing is said or the wrong comment is posted by someone else, or you know, maybe it doesn't even have anything to do with you, but you read it and you take offense to it, does that just, you know, magnify the spiral?

Melissa: 40:12

Sure. I mean, shame spirals really are about self-destruction. It's I already feel awful, and so why bother trying to get out? I may as well just go deeper. And what better place than social media where you're surrounded by perfection? If you want to self-destruct, it's a great place to do it. And as a parent, I would strongly encourage parents to get rid of the social media, pull the kids off the phones, off the devices, do it for a month and see what changes in your kid. Because they do, they change dramatically when those influences aren't there. And you will see a reduction in the depression, the anxiety, the shame spiraling. You'll see a reduction in behaviors, you'll see a reduction in everything.

Evan: 41:02

Yeah, I've that's a really interesting point. And I want to, you know, bring a real practical example of that. And I've seen it now in a couple of different cases. So my oldest. And these are anecdotal, everybody. It's not a I'm not suggesting that this is a gold standard double blind peer-reviewed study. You know, this isn't this isn't acetaminophiline in pregnancy.

Melissa: 41:25

Right.

Evan: 41:26

But uh just anecdotally, I've seen it in two different people that have been a part of my life, and but it's the same thing, right? So my oldest son and and your oldest son have both been you know big into video games. And I noticed some issues with my oldest son years ago before he moved to Canada. Don't go looking for him.

Melissa: 41:49

And addiction runs in both family histories.

Evan: 41:54

Yes, yes. But at any rate, I I noticed that he was spending a lot of time on video games and things like that. And I restricted his access to video games at one point, pulled him out of, you know, all the time that he was spending on the Xbox, and he was a totally different kid. Yep. Totally different kid. Now, there was a period of time where, you know, the first, I don't know, month, weeks, whatever. It was awful. It's the it's the it's the coming out of addiction, right? It's it's the withdrawal symptoms that you go through. Because it's an escape with people who are addicts.

Melissa: 42:25

It's an escape to avoid shame.

Evan: 42:27

Right. And you pull them out of that, and there's a period of time where you're going to deal with regressive behavior, but eventually that breaks.

Melissa: 42:34

It sure does.

Evan: 42:35

And you see a change in with consistency. With consistency, yes. And I think we've seen this the same thing in in your oldest as well. And it's it's very interesting when they dip their toe back in, you see those old things come back so quickly. So quickly.

Melissa: 42:54

So quickly.

Evan: 42:54

And then you take it, you take it away again and you see it just go.

Melissa: 42:58

It resolves so much faster, though.

Evan: 43:00

Right. Yeah right. You know, again, anecdotally, and to tie it to, you know, some of of what's happening in the world, and this is a little bit off topic, but I'm I'm hosting, so I'm gonna You can go off topic.

Melissa: 43:14

It's instant gratification and focus.

Evan: 43:16

If you look at, you know, the the it's really hard to talk about it because it's just really a a terrible situation. But if you look at the the Charlie Kirk killer and you look at the ICE detainee killer that was the anti-ICE guy who in in Dallas who just just killed three detainees because he shot indiscriminately into an ICE facility and hit the detainees instead of the ice agents that he was really trying to get. But at any rate, when they look at the histories of these people that are involved in these things, uh they're finding more and more that they are spending thousands and thousands and thousands of hours in these video games, these shooter video games. Now, I'm a skeptic that video games themselves are bad and cause these kinds of situations. I think, and maybe you'll agree, maybe you'll disagree as a trauma therapist. I think that people who have a more direct link to trauma in their background probably are more susceptible to these things. But I I feel like in some cases, take it in moderation, these things can be fun. When you live in that world, when you immerse yourself in that world for thousands of hours, then you know, an addictive personality can very easily be sucked in and it can make changes in you.

Melissa: 44:32

Much of any good thing is still unhealthy.

Evan: 44:36

Right. You want to play video games for uh you know an hour, balance a little bit, that's fine. Make sure you get outside, get your vitamin D.

Melissa: 44:43

And they can't be your only coping skill. They can be a great coping skill. Sure. But they can't be the only one. Sure. And when it causes isolation and exclusion of other things, that's when it becomes addictive and unhealthy.

Evan: 45:04

Yeah. So you just you just said too much of a good thing, too much of any good thing can be destructive, right?

Melissa: 45:10

Absolutely.

Evan: 45:10

So can shame ever be useful?

Melissa: 45:13

So every feeling that we have serves a purpose. So fear, for example, when one would feel fear back how many hundreds of years ago, it was I feel anxious or or I feel fear because there's something watching me. And if something's watching me, it could be a tiger and it might jump and kill me. So it caused us to take action. Anger tells us that there's something that goes against who we are that we might need to address. So shame tells us that we're not happy with a part of who we are and we need to fix it.

Evan: 45:56

So fear is a preparatory reaction to a perceived threat. Absolutely. Right. And shame is sort of the same thing, right? It's a threat to our psyche.

Melissa: 46:06

Sure. It it's us being unhappy with something, and sh the shame is the act of covering it up instead of fixing it.

Evan: 46:16

Okay. Okay. I I would have I would have thought that shame would be your inner psyche, and I took psychology 101, but I'm I'm blanking on there's the id and all the other the ego, the super ego, right? Id, ego, super ego.

Melissa: 46:30

Yep.

Evan: 46:30

One of those is the self. I think it's the id.

Melissa: 46:33

The id, I think, is the evil one.

Evan: 46:34

Ah, okay. Well, whichever one.

Melissa: 46:36

It might be the ego. I really don't know. I wasn't a psych major.

Evan: 46:40

Right. No, but you took the class's master's degree.

Melissa: 46:44

Long time ago. And I don't practice Freudian stuff. Fair enough.

Evan: 46:49

Fair enough. But one of them is the self. And I think that shame is basically I've threatened myself and who I see myself as. Correct. Right. And so it is that natural reaction the same way that fear is a natural reaction to a perceived external threat. Sure. Right. And it's it's the body's way of saying or the mind's way of saying there's something wrong that you need to resolve.

Melissa: 47:16

And even with fear, right? We talk about our internal smoke alarm is anxiety. And some people are afraid of everything and they don't know why. And their smoke alarm is going off way too much. So we have to look at that barometer and shift it. Well, shame is no different. Shame is a barometer. So we feel shame over different things. We're more sensitive to some perceived inadequacies than others. And the question becomes have I dealt with this perceived inadequacy? Have I navigated why it's there and how it got there? Because then I won't feel shame over it anymore. I've shifted my barometer.

Evan: 48:00

Yeah. All right, let's leave people with something practical. If someone's listening and they're stuck in a shame spiral right now, or you know, they know somebody who's stuck in a shame spiral right now, or maybe they've seen it in the past and they want to be prepared for the future. What's one thing they can do today to break out of it? To, you know, keep in the back of their minds to remind themselves. If you're doing it, stop it and get some help.

Melissa: 48:26

Oh man. So what can they do to get out of it? Yeah. Own it. Just today. To somebody, to yourself. Own it. Own that you have a destructive, maladaptive response to something. Because that's what it is. It's a defense skill. It's something is coming at me and I don't like it. So I need to push people away. Own it.

Evan: 48:50

How can people shift from I'm bad to I made a mistake?

Melissa: 48:54

They start by using their words and saying it. The more we tell ourselves, the more we start to believe. Innately, the vast majority of people are both good and bad. We all have good and bad inside of us. And when we can acknowledge that that's actually normal, I'm not perfect. You're not perfect. I don't know anybody that was perfect except Jesus. And I didn't really know him personally, you know, when he was alive. But we're none of us are perfect. And we all have things that we've done. We all have a history. We we all have things that we couldn't control about our upbringing that caused shame and messages that were received that also aren't our fault. Some of us have been in situations where somebody else has placed that shame upon us and we just need to recognize that it was never ours to carry. It was always theirs. But we have to recognize it first and then actually dig in and do the work of dealing with it. Instead of believing that you can control it or you're not gonna do it anymore, or that you're just some superhero. We all need help.

Evan: 50:08

Sounds like own it, say it, do it.

Melissa: 50:10

Very much so. Because when you know better, you do better. Know better, do better.

Evan: 50:15

Keeps coming back. Sure does. This has been another episode of the Unmentionabcast. Thank you so much for listening, and we hope that we have been able to share valuable perspectives that can help you in your own life. We want your feedback on future content. You can find us on the web at podcast.theinmenablespod.com, where you can follow us and subscribe for subscriber only content, like the Equalizer series, where we break down topics with truth and analyze the narratives we hear today to decide what's really going on. You can reach out to us on the social media platforms, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok at the Unmentionables Podcast on X at Unmentionables X. Each episode also includes a text link in the description. And of course, if you follow us on your favorite podcast platform, you can send us comments and requests there. We're so grateful that you take the time to listen to us, and we want you to know that we appreciate your interest in what we do.